Originally published on Oxford Policy Podcast.
In this episode of the Oxford Policy Podcast, host Nick Fabbri sits down with Haibado Abdoulkader Yacin, a Mastercard Foundation AfOx Scholar and Master of Public Policy student at Oxford’s Blavatnik School of Government. Haibado, a dedicated public servant from Djibouti, shares her incredible personal story and journey from Djibouti, in the Horn of Africa, to studying and working across three continents.
Haibado’s experiences span her role advising the Minister of Finance in Djibouti on youth employment and entrepreneurship, to her involvement in civil society movements focused on educational reforms. As someone passionate about sustainable development and the empowerment of Africa’s youth, Haibado reflects on how her international education shaped her perspective, and discusses her work in shaping opportunities in Djibouti through policy and public service.
Nick and Haibado discuss Djibouti’s strategic role in international security, its unique cultural and diplomatic identity, its history of colonisation and migration, as well as some poetical reflections on Haibado's home. Tune in for an inspiring conversation on leadership, policy innovation, and the future of development in Africa.
Transcript below ^_^
[Nick] (0:00 - 0:55)
Welcome back dear friends and policy lovers to another episode of the Oxford Policy Podcast, one of the last of the 2023-2024 MPP cohort. My name is Nick Fabbri and I'll be your host for today. I'm lucky to be joined today by Haibado Abdoulkader Yacin.
Haibado is a Master of Public Policy student at the Blavatnik School of Government, where she studies as a Mastercard Foundation AfOx scholar. Haibado is from Djibouti, a country in the Horn of Africa, which sits in a geo-strategically important area alongside the Red Sea. Haibado is a wonderfully kind, talented and hopeful young leader who speaks Somali, French, English and a little bit of Arabic.
Haibado has studied in France and the United States and has recently worked in the office of the Minister of Finance in Djibouti on youth employment and entrepreneurship. So Haibado, thank you so much for being here today. It's a pleasure to be speaking with you.
[Haibado] (0:56 - 1:01)
Thank you very much, Nick, and thank you so much for such a wonderful introduction. I'm very happy to be here.
[Nick] (1:02 - 1:18)
Wonderful. It took us a few times to get through it. I'm a bit nervous given it's my last episode, but how lovely to be here with you today as we head towards the end of September.
Remarkable to think about. So for our listeners who aren't as familiar with you and your story, can you tell us a bit about yourself and introduce yourself to the listeners?
[Haibado] (1:18 - 2:16)
Yes, most definitely. I think I did share a bit of this with a few of our classmates already. But so like you said, my name is Haibado.
I grew up by Haibado because this is what my mother prefers to call me. I come from Djibouti. I grew up there my entire life.
And when I was about 17, I left home to go study abroad, first in France, where I did my bachelor's in social sciences and African studies at Sciences Po Paris. And then I was fortunate enough to get into the dual bachelor's program with Columbia University in the city of New York. So about two years into my program in France, I flew to New York to continue a bachelor's in economics political science.
Right after that, I pursued a master's in international development back at Sciences Po Paris. And then I went back home, started working at the Office of Minister of Finance. And about a year and a half in, I applied to the MPP.
And this is how I got here.
[Nick] (2:17 - 2:41)
Unbelievable. It's a remarkably cosmopolitan and international story. And I look forward to unpacking it more over the course of the interview.
But we were having a conversation over lunch before coming to do this interview here at BSG today. And we talked a bit about the story of your name. So Haibado Aboulkader Yacin.
And there's so much of the history of your family, but also your country wrapped up in it. So could you talk a bit about what your name means?
[Haibado] (2:42 - 2:57)
Yes. So I think like many populations in the East Coast or in Eastern Africa, my family name is actually an accumulation of, it's based on a patrilineage model.
[Nick] (2:57 - 2:59)
So I mean, through the father's name, is that?
[Haibado] (2:59 - 6:11)
Exactly. So Aboulkader is my father's first or given name. And Yacin is my grandfather's first or given name.
And fun story, a fun fact about my grandfather's name is that he was actually originally Salawat. But he enrolled when he was quite young in the army during the French colonization. And he actually fought during the Second World War in what was called the Bataillon Somali, which was indigenous part of military branch of the French army.
So his name was changed to Yacin, because he was deemed to be easier. And he just went on with it. But to be honest, my grandfather, whom unfortunately I did not get to meet because he passed away before I was born, was really a mysterious man.
So like you said, my story personally, and I think the story of many Djiboutians is one of migrations, just because Djibouti used to be some sort of a no man's land before, at least in the 1800s. It wasn't really part of any specific, for example, it wasn't part of the Ethiopian Empire, which was the dominating power at the time. And my grandfather, for example, is a very mysterious man, like I told you, we don't know where he's from.
But I know that my grandmother, my father's mother is originally from Somaliland. And they met in Djibouti. My father was born in the city of Tadjouran in the northern part of the country.
As for my mother, her entire family is originally from Ethiopia, more specifically from Asia, when fortunately in 1960 unfolded a massacre that was perpetrated by the empire military against mostly Somali populations. So this is how my grandmother, who I was named after, her name was Hebedo, migrated, has a refugee to Djibouti with her six children. And this is how I am now a second generation Djiboutian.
But I think in general, Djibouti was quite unpopulated. It's a very not welcoming place, I mean, in terms of temperatures. And this is something we're going to get to discuss about after.
But nothing grows in Djibouti, we don't have any agriculture, we don't have any other types of exploitable resources. So it was mainly more of a passage point for pastoralists. And they didn't used to stay long in Djibouti.
And yeah, so this is how my personal story also tangles with the history of the country that a non-welcoming place that because of its geostrategical location came to become a colony and came to become a country. And now is on the verge of probably becoming, I would say, a power to at least impossible to ignore in the whole of Africa.
[Nick] (6:12 - 7:02)
I look forward to unpacking and discovering more about it as we sort of progress through the interview. But staying with Djibouti, and you sort of alluded to a bit of the history before, and there's so much richness there to unpack in terms of geography, its history, its different cultural influences, the stories of migration as well. But could you talk to us a bit about the country from more of a personal perspective?
What does it sort of feel like for you to be from the capital, which is actually also called Djibouti as well? I mean, because for me in Australia, you know, we know about the Horn of Africa. But I guess our consciousness of Djibouti as a specific country is quite limited.
And you are the first Djiboutian I've ever met. But yeah, could you sort of paint a picture of what it's actually like to be from Djibouti and to walk the streets over there?
[Haibado] (7:04 - 8:17)
So growing up in Djibouti, I would say that my childhood was a very peaceful one. But because of the size of the country, of course, and because of the fact that even though we are, we are not in a remote area at all, I think, but we are neighboured by countries that have been either conflict with each other, or experienced a lot of internal conflicts. So the first thing that I must say is that I always grew up in a very peaceful environment.
And which is in contrast, for example, to my mother's experience growing up. And that is something that I think is very dear to the heart of most Djiboutians. We always say that the most important thing for us is peace.
And so while growing up on the stage, Djibouti is a very small place. So for example, we didn't have any cinemas. The first mall in the country, I think was integrated in 2019.
The first university in the country was integrated in 2011. So it used to be a very small place where nothing was really going.
[Nick] (8:17 - 8:30)
It's a small country by population size too. It's only a million people, which when you think about, you know, the hundreds of millions of people on the African continent, even over a billion people, Nigeria is pushing up to nearly 300 million.
[Haibado] (8:30 - 8:30)
Exactly.
[Nick] (8:30 - 8:33)
It's a very small number. But it's, yeah, it is very small.
[Haibado] (8:34 - 9:49)
It's also one of the reasons why most people in Djibouti know each other, and especially the older generations. So another fun fact is that in Djibouti city before the city became sort of a city-state, because this is where most of the political economic dynamics are happening. There was one neighborhood that is called Cartesies, and that is a neighborhood that exists to today.
It's a historic one in the city. And this is where the first populations that migrated to Djibouti city actually settled during French colonization. So my parents were neighbors with the president of the country, and my parents' generation, born in the late 50s, basically they really do know all, like they do know each other.
And back then there was only probably two middle schools. So this is one of the things I do realize that my experience is quite different in comparison to many people. When I say, oh, but I know this person, and I can meet a random Djiboutian, and by doing a timely research, I can find either a common friend or a common relative.
[Nick] (9:50 - 9:52)
So two or three degrees of separation sort of thing.
[Haibado] (9:52 - 9:52)
Yeah, exactly.
[Nick] (9:52 - 10:08)
That's nice, because my home city actually, well, both cities, I'm from Melbourne and Sydney, would be both be over 4 million people each, you know. And then you think about like some of our colleagues here at the MPP from Tokyo, for instance, that must be about, I think greater Tokyo is like over 27 million people.
[Haibado] (10:08 - 10:08)
Exactly.
[Nick] (10:09 - 10:37)
So it's, I mean, which is the size of Australia as a population as a whole, for the whole continent. So it's quite remarkable. But and they speak, you know, you alluded to the history of colonization in Djibouti.
Is French the main language that's spoken? Obviously, it's part of Francophonic Africa, but it's unique in being the only eastern continental French speaking country, right? Most of Francophonic Africa is in the West, apart from, I think, Madagascar and a few others you mentioned out east.
[Haibado] (10:38 - 11:28)
Exactly. So French, as well as Arabic are official languages. And then we have two languages that are Somali and Afar.
And French is the most commonly used language in administration. And it is a language that you must master if you really want to get access to good employment opportunities. I think what we're trying to do now as a country is to develop more English, just because we are also this logistical hub, where we are trading both with Ethiopia and other countries neighboring us.
And this is probably going to become one of the most used languages in the next few years. So now I would say in more business settings, English is the main language of usage, but administratively, it's French.
[Nick] (11:28 - 11:53)
That's fascinating. And we spoke about this before, but it really is a liminal country, like it's sort of like this almost, you know, incredible transient or sort of halfway blend between, it's a melting pot, I think, as you put it, but between French-speaking Africa, obviously English-speaking Africa in Ethiopia. You're part of the African Union as well, but also the Arab League, interestingly.
[Haibado] (11:54 - 11:54)
Yes.
[Nick] (11:54 - 12:26)
You sit on the east, on the horn of Africa, looking out to the Indian Ocean, but you also look west in terms of the trading partners with Ethiopia and others. You have the depth and complexity of Somalian history, Ethiopian history, different sort of tribal and cultural and ethnic backgrounds as well. It's almost like an impossibly complex melting pot.
How do you kind of like, what is Djiboutian identity, if you can distill anything out of that at all as one kind of unifying theme, really?
[Haibado] (12:27 - 15:03)
So in the context of Djibouti, we actually do have this concept that we called Djiboutianité, which basically means having this identity of belonging. And I think one of the main things that actually used to bring people together was French as a language, counterintuitively. Because, for example, looking at Djibouti in terms of demographic and the details of what are culturally the backgrounds of everyone in the country, you have two main cultural groups, which are, not to use the word ethnic groups, the Somalis and Afar.
And Somalis and Afar also are quite dominant in terms of numbers and population in Ethiopia. And they do actually have regions in Ethiopia that belong to them, because Ethiopia is a federal government. So the eastern part of Ethiopia is a Somali region, and then the northern eastern part is the Afar region, and both of them share a border.
And in Ethiopia, you have many conflicts that are recurrent between Afar and Somali populations, that those are not happening in Djibouti. And I think it does come from a sort of social contract that was, I think, really designed at independence of having this requirement of living together in peace, as much as possible. And that was probably strengthened throughout the years with the civil war that broke out in Somalia in the 1990s.
And even the issues happening in Ethiopia, because we were also talking about the dynamics and what is happening in the Tigray, this is not something that is new. In the context of Ethiopia, I did tell you about my own personal mother's story. And from the outside looking in, you would think that this is completely impossible.
But I do think that Djiboutians have a lot to congratulate themselves for, because they managed against all odds to keep this peace. And if you ever visit Djibouti, this is something that you will feel right away. There is also another component that is the fact that we have a lot of foreign presence in the country.
So we have many military bases, but the military bases are not allowed to interfere into domestic politics.
[Nick] (15:03 - 15:09)
You mentioned that the Chinese and American naval bases or something are about 15 minutes from each other, which I kind of imagine.
[Haibado] (15:09 - 15:18)
15 minutes drive, yes. The country of Djibouti in itself is 23,000 square kilometers. It's very small.
[Nick] (15:19 - 16:29)
But I just find it amazing that it is, and you look at some of the literature and commentary in the media, I mean, they say it's one of the most, I mean, not to speak in these terms, but one of the only stable and peaceful countries in the Horn of Africa, which, you know, in terms of media headlines and I suppose international consciousness, often it's, you know, we hear about famines in the Horn of Africa or civil war or conflict or violence.
And, you know, it can be quite a, I suppose, fraught region because of the history of colonization. And I suppose the deep fault lines that that still has on a lot of different countries today. But remarkably Djibouti has been able to sort of foster this sort of peacefulness and stability almost atypically in the region, you know, and noting the internal complexities of the region as well, right, with the different cultural groups and languages as well, which I find just an amazing case study, basically.
Could you talk a bit about the French history of colonization? And you mentioned independence before, but when kind of precisely did Djibouti gain its independence?
[Haibado] (16:31 - 17:44)
So the way it happened for Djibouti is, I think, initially Djibouti used to be under the control of the British. And there was negotiations that happened with the French to get this really tiny piece of territory under their control. And a lot of mediations with the local populations.
So not, if I have this accurately, it was made the negotiations with the Sultan of Tadjoura. And then with other leaders of, you know, other populations that were in the country at the time. And I think the colonization process in Djibouti was quite smooth.
In a creation of the colony, there was not any struggle or opposition from the local populations, just because the local populations, I think as well, were really limited in number. And like I told you before, we also have this history of pastoralism. So most populations there in Djibouti were nomads, not in any way engaged in any sort of, for example, a political organization.
[Nick] (17:45 - 17:45)
Yeah.
[Haibado] (17:45 - 17:48)
So basically a bunch of shepherds that were...
[Nick] (17:48 - 17:52)
No distinct urban centers and kind of polities around a city or something.
[Haibado] (17:52 - 19:06)
Exactly. But there were a lot of traders, specifically from Yemen, that were settled in the country. So you had a lot of trade.
That's why Djibouti was interesting to the French to begin with, you know, being on this passage, doing like just down the Suez Canal to India. So this is how the country came to be. And we are the last in the country, at least in Sub-Saharan Africa, that gained independence from France on the 27th of June 1977.
And the struggle for independence, however, was not a peaceful one. There were a lot of events and not to go into the details, but France was really against giving us up and for obvious reasons, but we finally managed to gain independence. And one striking thing, the reason why Djibouti, I think, even developed this model of military bases and cooperation with foreign military powers afterwards was because when we get independence, we were under the direct threat of being invaded by both Somalia and Ethiopia.
[Nick] (19:07 - 19:15)
Because of their, I suppose, claims on the geography and also those cultural groups as well, language groups, which they share, right?
[Haibado] (19:15 - 19:57)
Exactly. And it was even more important for Ethiopia because the country had lost any access to the sea. There was this conflict with Eritrea that was making things more difficult for Ethiopia.
Eritrea used to be the traditional partner of the country. And rather than independence, we signed a partnership on defense with France and this is how everything began. And we were, until very recently, and I think we are up until today, the biggest French military base abroad.
And this has been going on since 1977.
[Nick] (19:57 - 20:44)
Fascinating. Because the French, to talk about, I suppose, the shadow of colonialism and the shadow of the French empire, they still are active across the Indian Ocean. They see themselves and even in the Pacific with New Caledonia, for instance.
And this is sort of really interesting, almost like post-colonial kind of presence that they still maintain militarily in terms of security, etc. And we even feel it in Australia because of their presence in New Caledonia and some discussion we've had about submarine contracts with them. But does France as a country, as a modern state, still play an active role, I suppose, in Djibouti politics and also civil society consciousness?
[Haibado] (20:46 - 22:22)
So this is actually one of the reasons why I think Djibouti got to really broaden their set of international partners. We used to have, France has always been a traditional partner of Djibouti. But, you know, we talked about the fact that Djibouti is small, we don't have any resources apart from our localization.
There was a need in just after independence to develop the country. And if we don't have any resources to exploit, then we must attract investment to try to build the private sector. And for a long time, at least from, I think, the perspective of decision makers domestically, France was not doing enough.
France was willing to invest militarily, but was not willing to invest as much into the economy. And this is how Djibouti got to develop its sports. First with the UAE, and more specifically, DP World, which is a ports development company.
And afterwards, got to build this partnership with China to continue the development of ports. So we went through one port, the port of Djibouti, to building the ports of Dorale, and then the ports of Tadjara. So now we have three ports into the country.
And up until this year, we were among the top 20 most performant ports in the entire world, according to the World Bank.
[Nick] (22:23 - 22:56)
Yeah. And because it sits in that really just geostrategically and geographically significant area at the horn of Africa, right near the Red Sea, the Suez Canal, it's basically like one of the major thoroughfares of global trade. You have a lot of international investors, whether they be sovereign governments of China, UAE, France, also private companies willing to invest in Djibouti to develop that hard infrastructure and, I suppose, physical capability to actually facilitate that trade.
Is that sort of a reasonable summary of, I suppose?
[Haibado] (22:57 - 23:29)
This is a perfect summary of the situation. And that's one of the reasons why the country is mainly reliant on services today. And unfortunately, there is only so much you can invest in ports.
A country is not unidimensional. So we do need to also invest in other areas of a private sector. And today, notwithstanding logistics, there is not really a strong or capable private sector in the country.
[Nick] (23:29 - 24:34)
It would be good to talk about that when we come to your career and time in the Ministry of Finance, actually working at the coalface of these public policy questions about facilitating the development and growth of the private sector and new industries as well. But if we can just stay with Djibouti for a second and, I suppose, thinking about that development of the small state perspective or consciousness. Historically, Djibouti, as a colonial construction of the French Empire, it's a sort of small player working with giants, basically.
But also today, regionally in the Horn of Africa. So you see now it's balancing with the French, the Chinese, the UAE and some of the Gulf states in terms of their commercial and geostrategic interests, but also at a more hyper-local level. You have Djibouti balancing in the Horn of Africa, so in East Africa, with Ethiopia and some of the states there.
So could you talk a bit about that small state perspective?
[Haibado] (24:36 - 26:43)
I think in the context of Djibouti, what really sets us apart is that we are yet a small player, but we do not have small ambitions. And one thing, a role that has actually been very much developed by Djibouti is this role of being a mediator. So in the very early years, for example, of the civil war in Somalia, Djibouti stood out as the main mediator with countries such as the US.
And I'm not sure if you're familiar with everything that happened, but the US tried to intervene militarily in Mogadishu and then experienced this huge loss. And this is when the whole narrative about Somalia being a failed state really, really, was anchored. And there was no hope for any form of nation building.
And of course, this is mainly the doing of Somali people and Somalia as a country. But Djibouti positioned itself very early on as a partner, as a mediator. And I think, at least from the perspective of everyone back then, it was maybe a role that was not fit for the country because of its size.
But in terms of cultural ties, it actually helped a lot, because there is also a great share of Somali population in Djibouti. So, but the country actually developed more of this diplomatic aura, if I put it this way, throughout the years, and was actually one of the founding countries of IGAD, which is the intergovernmental organization that is focusing on security in the whole of Africa. So now IGAD includes Eritrea, Ethiopia, Djibouti, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Kenya, and I think as well, other countries that joined, but those are the founding countries.
[Nick] (26:43 - 26:45)
It's a regional grouping, basically.
[Haibado] (26:45 - 27:01)
It is a regional grouping that is not only focusing on security now, but also on climate resilience, because the whole of Africa is prone to a lot of droughts. And yes, it has been quite active. So the headquarters of this organization are in Djibouti.
[Nick] (27:01 - 27:15)
So it's almost like developing a bit of a model or a fusion of Switzerland as a diplomatic center in Singapore, maybe as a commercial hub as well. Does that sort of ring a bell at all?
[Haibado] (27:15 - 28:22)
Most definitely. And I think from all perspectives, this has been seen as a mission that was impossible to complete. But I think Djibouti is really, really good at balancing the interests of all its partners.
And also, for your information, I think this is probably something that you don't know, because it's not that widespread of information. But we actually were in active conflict with Eritrea in 2008. And Eritrea is actively occupying one of our islands in the northern part of the country.
Yes, the island of Doumera. But the conflict didn't exceed the duration of a few months. And right there and then Djibouti adopted this stance of peace building and peacemaking, which is the reason why I think we maintained sort of cordial relationships within IGAD, but also within the African Union.
[Nick] (28:23 - 28:46)
Yeah. And is IGAD sort of an example of Djibouti and other member states of the African Union, kind of seeking to take things into their own hands outside of the United Nations who might play like a peacekeeping role? Does it give greater autonomy basically to the region than one of the major international multilateral organizations?
[Haibado] (28:47 - 30:13)
So I think it's more of a a space where countries can convene and discuss development strategies together, mainly focusing on the challenges that are direct threats to the country. So security, climate change. But outside of that, IGAD doesn't have the scope of, for example, an organization such as, in comparison, I would say the East Africa community.
There is no, at least political project to make of IGAD an organization that is supranational. I think it's very much intergovernmental. It's even in the name.
But I think it is an organization that is important to keep in order to maintain this dialogue. So the fact that Eritrea was also part of IGAD while being in active conflict with Djibouti is something important to note. But in terms of how the organization is going to develop in the next few years, I think there is this project of trying to create, of course, more than a space of dialogue to try to unite together and having this sub-regional group that will be gaining more and more power within, for example, the African Union, but also internationally on its own.
[Nick] (30:14 - 30:47)
And what are some of the more major security issues for the region? Because we often read in newspapers about, you know, conflicts in Yemen, the Houthi rebels, piracy. But obviously in the context of the Israel-Gaza conflict as well, there's some sort of contestation around the openness and the freedom of trade and transport in the Red Sea as well.
So could you sort of reflect on, I guess, the landscape or the security landscape in the region?
[Haibado] (30:49 - 32:21)
So focusing more on the specific case of Djibouti, Djibouti has been welcoming many refugee populations that were, of course, fleeing the conflicts. For example, I talked a lot about the civil conflict in Somalia, the civil conflict as well that broke out in Yemen more recently in 2015. And this has created challenges for the country in terms of how to integrate those refugee populations.
But Djibouti, in contrast to maybe other countries in the region, such as Kenya, had also this advantage of quite limited population. So for example, in Djibouti, also there was a deliberate effort from public decision makers in the country to allow, for example, refugee children to have access to free education, primary and secondary. But there are many, many, many adjustments to be made in terms of regulations to now think about the transition into having access to formal employment opportunities for populations that, for most of them, have little, at least in the medium term, little opportunities to go back to their countries of origin.
There are no existing pathways, for example, to access citizenship for those refugee populations.
[Nick] (32:21 - 32:30)
Even permanent residency is a kind of midway point, or is it really there's no real way to kind of onboard people from that refugee status into the country?
[Haibado] (32:30 - 32:42)
There are opportunities for permanent residency, but like many other countries, and I think most countries, you first have to access formal employment, which is difficult to have access to with refugee status.
[Nick] (32:42 - 33:21)
And particularly given Djibouti's own particular context, and I suppose limitations in its state capacity, to use a term from the Master of Public Policy curriculum, but you know, it is a country of one million people. It's developing, you know, as a quite an agrarian history as well. But probably the highest youth unemployment rate in the African Union is the thing that you mentioned before.
So it's actually quite hard to balance all those things. And yet at the same time, it probably has a real need for entrepreneurial, you know, migrant populations who want to work and want to become citizens. So it's a vexed sort of position to be in.
[Haibado] (33:21 - 34:36)
Most definitely. I think the challenge of job creation has been one that has been really weighting down on at least development perspective for Djibouti as a country, just because there was this high reliance on public employment for a very long time. That is also one of the heritage that we got from French colonisation, is that at the early stages of nation building, there was this need to have people working within public institutions to get the country running and going.
But now we have this problem where we have achieved high level of education. So I think in terms of primary education, we are probably nearing 100% enrolment rate. And you have many university graduates in Djibouti as well.
And today the question is, how to ensure that these young people actually have access to employment opportunities that will allow them to fulfil or to live fulfilling lives. And without the private sector, without private endeavours, there is only so many people that can get employment in public administration.
[Nick] (34:36 - 34:58)
Yeah. And this is a nice segue to your career history before coming to the MPP here at Oxford. You worked in the office for the Minister of Finance on youth employment and entrepreneurship as well.
So could you talk to us a bit about that role and some of the key policy issues and initiatives you worked on with reference to the policy issues we've been talking about?
[Haibado] (34:59 - 37:31)
So in the context of that role, my main missions were to support, for example, in Djibouti in 2018, the Ministry of Finance kind of led the creation of our first entrepreneurship hub, which is called the Centre for Leadership and Entrepreneurship. Now it's under the direct tutelage of the Ministry of Digital Economy. And the goal with this, we would call it CLEI, it's easier.
The acronym is CLEI. The goal of CLEI was to first spark the youth interest into entrepreneurship. And it's really important to mention that there are a lot of structural barriers to entrepreneurship in Djibouti.
Not only is the market limited, but for example, if you think about the cost of electricity and water, it's a country that, like I told you, we don't produce anything. We import absolutely everything. So it's quite challenging for anyone to start a business.
But we have done a lot of progress when it comes to taxation and also when it comes to business creation. So now today, you can open your business and get it running in less than a week in Djibouti. So there was also the creation of other governmental agencies to support the access to investments for young entrepreneurs.
But I think what is really interesting in the context of Djibouti and in the context of many sub-Saharan African countries is this focus on the development of more specifically youth entrepreneurship initiatives. So that have more of the inclusive approach and then ensure that young people, notwithstanding their educational background, you don't have any barriers when it comes to, for example, what level of education you have completed. But of course, you must have the basics.
But there are programs that help in both financial literacy and other things that you need to start your own business. So these policies are mostly focusing on small and medium enterprises, more specifically targeting young people. And when I say young people, to be fair, the scope is even larger.
So when you think about young people, you would say maybe between 15 to 30, but in reality, it's between 15 to 45.
[Nick] (37:31 - 38:45)
I'm glad because I'm 32 and I'm a bit old, not fitting into that 15 to 30 age bracket. We live in a globalized world where traveling to other countries for work is something to do for a couple of years if you want as a young person. You mentioned there are many people from Ethiopia who come across the border into Djibouti almost every day or every week for work as well.
So borders and migration is fluid. Opportunities are abundant and you can go and seek them out. I wonder, is brain drain a bit of an issue for the Djiboutian youth?
Because you just mentioned there's obviously higher educational enrolment and participation rates, perhaps at the university level, maybe less so than primary and secondary, but it obviously seems to be like there's quite a strong focus on education. And obviously, it's an incredibly international and cosmopolitan country by virtue of its history, as you just mentioned. And you yourself have lived and worked in the United States, in France, and now in England.
Is there a sense in which maybe Djibouti's future youth might go abroad and not come back?
[Haibado] (38:47 - 39:52)
So from a very personal perspective, I think that being part as well of, I wouldn't qualify myself as being part of the diaspora, because I haven't settled abroad for a longer period than the period that was required for my studies. And I think personally, I see myself going back home and most probably continue to work within the public administration because this is my calling. And also because I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to get a job within the public administration.
But I think the question is very much on the table for most Djiboutians who achieve high level of education and more specifically the ones who travel abroad and get specialised. For example, you can think about engineering, but maybe chemical engineering. And when they come back home, there are no industries for them to actually get employed.
[Nick] (39:52 - 39:53)
Fascinating, isn't it?
[Haibado] (39:53 - 40:11)
Exactly. So there is also this problem of occupational misallocation and it can create a lot of grievances within young people, but also a lot of maybe unfulfilled expectations.
[Nick] (40:11 - 40:28)
And also just inefficiencies from an economic perspective, right? So you're qualified in something you can do X, but you're forced to take on another role or something which you don't really want to do. I mean, it's disappointing from a personal perspective, but it's also very economically inefficient.
[Haibado] (40:28 - 41:23)
Most definitely. And that's one of the issues that we are having as a country, the issues of attractiveness and trying to develop other sectors. If only our geostrategical location is attractive to foreign direct investments or bilateral advancements, then what about any other possible sectors where you can create employment?
But I think the thing with Djibouti is that we're really trying to engage into this path of diversification. And the question of integrating these young Djiboutians or less young Djiboutians who are abroad currently and working in industries or in services or sectors that are non-existent is going to be probably the main challenge to be tackled in the next five to 10 years, if we really want to engage into this next phase of development for our country.
[Nick] (41:23 - 42:37)
Incredible. In a way, it reminds me of the resource curse of developing nations. We've done a few case studies on this throughout the degree here at the Vatnik School.
You know, you might have a country in a sort of a low development phase, which discovers oil or some sort of other critical mineral or resource. And then their economy and development is kind of contingent upon that one vertical. And then, you know, let's say the resource runs out or it's inherently fragile in a way, because let's say you take that away, you don't really hedge your economic development and future growth.
So the question of diversification of industries and economic sectors is a really pertinent one for the region. You look at Saudi Arabia in a way where they're trying to sort of develop neon and manufacturing and also, you know, tourism and other kind of away from the dependence on oil, for instance. But in Djibouti, it's obviously difficult because you don't have, as you said, minerals, resources, agricultural.
So you really live off, I suppose, this sense of human capital, which is something I think you've done some work on and studies on before as well, right?
[Haibado] (42:37 - 43:49)
Most definitely. But I think the issue of human capital building in general, at least the approach that is taken by a lot of international donors and partner organizations, is really one of trying to find pockets of employment and then focus more on skills building to allow people to have access to those opportunities. But in the case of Djibouti, it's a double challenge.
You have first to create those pockets of opportunities and at the same time, train people to allow them to have access to those opportunities. And this is definitely very difficult to do if the only form of financing you can have access to is, for example, in the form of loans. It just worsens the situation in terms of national debt.
And this is something that is also a challenge that is shared by many sub-Saharan countries, is one of access to international markets. If you don't have a good credit or a good mark, you cannot buy a ratings agency, for instance, like movies or something.
[Nick] (43:50 - 43:51)
You won't have access to international capital.
[Haibado] (43:53 - 44:00)
And this is definitely the case of Djibouti today. And of course, it's not sustainable to build an entire country on debt.
[Nick] (44:00 - 45:11)
Yeah. Well, indeed. As many of our Governing the Global Economy case studies and examples will tell us.
Not to keep going back to the curriculum, but it's been useful. I've got something out of the degree. It's good.
So it's interesting hearing you speak about these policy issues. I suppose just the deeply complex nature of history, geopolitics and economics. And to picture you working in the Ministry of Finance in the Djiboutian government as well, prior to coming here to Oxford.
And as you mentioned, probably going back there as well. So I guess there's sort of two parts to this question. How did you actually get into public service and public administration?
It's, you know, very, very competitive. Not everyone can do it. There's many other parts of the economy or employment opportunities you might have taken up.
And I suppose, secondly, looking forward, you know, do you see yourself kind of continuing to work on these policy issues from within government or perhaps maybe international organisations as well and civil society advocacy work?
[Haibado] (45:13 - 48:13)
So my personal, I would say my personal journey to public employment is quite of an unconventional one in a sense that when I came back to Djibouti, it's quite difficult to access a job within the public administration today because the public administration is not employing anymore. So I challenged myself and I also wanted to prove people wrong. So what I did is that I basically gathered everything that worked on previously within internships or any other type of opportunities.
And at that time I was focusing more. So I really did this brainstorming problem. And the one of youth employment is one that, of course, affects me personally.
And that was affecting me at the time where I was doing the whole brainstorming thing. And of course, it's one of the main topics of development within the African context today. And what I did is that basically I worked on the documents and the project was to pitch it to different ministries.
And I started with the Ministry of Finance, quite naturally, because this is a ministry that oversees the access and the relationship with external funding. And I was very fortunate to, and I have to give credit to my supervisor and boss, the Minister of Finance himself, who was really open to have a discussion with me. So to be honest, when this happened, it was quite of a surreal experience.
I did not believe it at first. I was incredibly anxious. Nothing could have prepared me for that moment.
I just went into the office that is open to quite everybody. And I had a chat with the secretaries who were there. And basically I was called maybe a week or two weeks afterwards to have a direct exchange with the minister.
And we talked about everything that I was envisioning as how useful could I be. So I first went with the project of being an intern. And this is how it sort of came to be.
So I was more of a working as a research study assistant. And after a few months, we discussed about ways to extend this opportunity. And this is how I started working as a consulting advisor.
And I was working in partnership with UNDP Djibouti as well. So this was the context of how this opportunity came to be. It's very unconventional.
And I'm very grateful to the Minister of Finance for his excellency, Mr. Midias Moussadouali, for having given me the opportunity to be exposed to so many, you know, very exciting projects and to get involved.
[Nick] (48:13 - 48:45)
It's different, I suppose, the work of being in government as a public servant, and you can make some really powerful policy changes, you know, the levers that you can pull and obviously working so closely with the minister as you described. But you also were involved in a civil society movement that accelerated the decentralization of high school examinations in Djibouti. So I guess, like looking at civil society policy change and advocacy versus working in government, like how do you kind of find those differences and some strengths and weaknesses?
[Haibado] (48:46 - 49:38)
I think in the context of this specific initiative that was called the Réseau Hospitalité initiative that I just joined, and I'm actually I was actually surprised of how everything came to be as well, because I was a volunteer to begin with, and then the team was comprising more senior figures that are quite popular within the civil society in Djibouti, and that quite immediately integrated me into, you know, being involved into the decision making and how we're going to organize.
And what we did essentially was just provide lunch to those high school students that were sitting for exams. And just to give you a context, in Djibouti, those exams happen in the summer. In terms of temperatures, it's quite horrible.
It can go up to 49 degrees Celsius.
[Nick] (49:39 - 49:51)
Sounds like Australia, but actually even worse, even hotter. Oh, really? Definitely.
No, Australia doesn't get, I mean, we've had like some 45, 67 degree days. It's almost unfathomably hot. But I mean, 49 is something else, you know, it's sort of.
[Haibado] (49:51 - 51:30)
Yes. And I think we're also very lucky in this context that the Ministry of Education was open to have a dialogue and to discuss about this. And basically, what we had as an information is that the decentralization process was already into, it was already in process.
But it was taking time, just because it meant changing, again, another heritage of the French colonization. It meant changing the whole functioning of an entire system. And the fact that Djibouti comprises, I think, 75% of the population is actually below the age of 30, according to one of the lastest forecasts from UNDP.
And when you think about it, it's about probably 5,000 to 10,000 students in both primary and secondary education. And at the scale of Djibouti, it's very challenging to manage. And fortunately, the decentralization process came to be more rapidly than expected.
And now students who are living in other cities and villages of the country can sit for those exams at home. So it creates a lot of, first of all, it destroys a lot of barriers to access higher education for both girls and women, but also underprivileged students coming from more, you know, poor backgrounds, and coming from the rural areas as well.
[Nick] (51:30 - 52:08)
So I suppose the policy problem, to step back a bit, so I probably should have provided more context before, but basically, examinations were run overly centrally, and you had like lower participation rates and educational attainment rates, because in the middle of summer, it's too hot, and people can't maybe travel from very remote regional areas to get to the cities to go and sit their exams, or they might prefer to have a cooler kind of environment to sit them at home.
And this initiative was designed to be able to provide the decentralization of exams, so they could be sat in kind of more flexible circumstances, right?
[Haibado] (52:09 - 53:50)
No, initially, the initiative was just to provide free lunch and accommodation to the students who will be open to it, and who would trust us enough to, you know, live in the room of a stranger's house for a few days, which was quite difficult to make it happen. Because obviously, you know, we didn't have any forms of, for example, coverage in the press or in the media. This was not, this was really something that came to be in a span of one to two weeks.
So it was really spontaneous. And it was just about providing some sort of, as little as it was, a little form of relief. So at least the students who made the trip to the city would not have to worry about, you know, getting food or exactly, and trying to get as much energy as they could.
So in terms of scale, it was really limited. It was so we were quite surprised about the demand when we first started, and we had to really in a span of a few hours, even try to organize ourselves better. And I also have to give kudos to the team who did an amazing, amazing job at integrating many volunteers like I was, and getting us involved into this whole process.
And even getting into the dialogue with the Ministry of Education. That was my first exposure, I would say, through a civil society movement to, you know, those questions of and those challenges related to public policy. And this is probably one of the reasons why I'm here today.
[Nick] (53:50 - 54:33)
So talking about that journey to the Master of Public Policy, how does this degree here at Oxford, I suppose, sit in the context of your future plans and goals? Because everyone comes to this degree remarkably, I find, thinking about it, but from completely different contexts in their own lives. And we all have a similar spark and motivation to come here, right?
And on the first day of school, literally a year ago now, about September 26, I think it was, we all turn up here at the same place, but such radically different contexts and circumstances. But yeah, where do you kind of hope that this degree might take you next? And what's your future sort of hopes and dreams for career, but also the impact that you want to have in the world and in Djibouti?
[Haibado] (54:34 - 55:25)
So I remember when I was writing my statement of purpose, I think the first thing that I wrote down was that I was really looking forward to meet new people and connect with professionals with such a diversity of backgrounds. And I didn't know that at least on a human perspective, the MPP would be so incredible. So we had an amazing time here throughout the year.
And I think what I really enjoyed is that we really got to know each other on a more personal basis and not only given our professional endeavors and ambitions. And this specifically has expected my expectations, just because I think I wouldn't have thought about it quite naturally. I think, you know, 12 months is very limited and most people left after nine months.
[Nick] (55:25 - 55:29)
So we're hanging around with the last one standing, basically, aren't we?
[Haibado] (55:29 - 56:42)
Exactly. So that was the first thing I was looking forward to. And personally, I think I'm convinced that my life is bound to be in Djibouti.
It's just I'm so passionate about the opportunities and everything that we can do. I mean, it's quite amazing when you think about it, that there are so many things that need to be developed in Djibouti. And that, for example, from the perspective of someone coming from even neighboring countries is quite natural for us.
It is something that is much more difficult to achieve. And I think that I'm a natural problem solver. And I do enjoy challenges naturally.
I've been this way, I think, since childhood and trying to find solutions to preserve this place that is for me, I think, not only dear to my heart, Djibouti is my life. And there is not a day I don't think about Djibouti. I think this is the first thing that I say to anyone that I meet is that I'm from Djibouti.
And then I say, this is such a tiny place. But let me tell you more about it.
[Nick] (56:42 - 56:44)
Yeah. So it's really beautiful.
[Haibado] (56:45 - 57:24)
So I think going back to Djibouti for sure. I'm not quite sure how or where I will be working, just because, you know, it's really also a question of trying to see what are the needs. And I think that personally, at least this is something that is really, really a me thing, is that when it comes to my country, I think about how useful I can be.
So my personal ambitions, are not so much about having a specific role, or achieving a certain status is, where can I work? Where can I be useful? Where can I bring the most impact?
[Nick] (57:24 - 57:40)
It's really beautiful. And has anything you've studied or learned or experienced during your time here kind of expanded the horizon of what you think you might like to work in terms of policy or I suppose, causes and issues that you want to work on?
[Haibado] (57:40 - 59:41)
So I think it's more specifically, I think it was mainly something that I had the opportunity to dive more into during my summer project. So you'd be more related to entrepreneurship policy, youth entrepreneurship policy, to be more precise, just because there are so many opportunities for even in the context of Djibouti for information, we don't have yet a national strategy for youth entrepreneurship, or for entrepreneurship in general, not that it is that incremental, but that's one of the things that we also learned throughout the year in MPP is to achieve policy outcomes, you have first to define policy objectives. And I think that developing more specifically a youth entrepreneurship policy strategy would be very important in setting this pathway to invest more into more inclusive policies, and to allow more of a, I would say, not only transition, but for example, young people, instead of getting a formal employment, engaging directly with entrepreneurship, that that will be my personal, I would say, ambition or projection in the next few years is that a young Djiboutian today that, for example, decides to now be, you know, have a be active within the workforce decides and have the less barriers as possible in becoming an entrepreneur.
And yes, that's, I think, one of the things that both with the class in economics for public policy, but also in a class of the politics of policymaking have been, I would say became even more of an interest, even though I was already working that sphere before joining the MPP.
[Nick] (59:41 - 1:00:49)
I think the really interesting and challenging piece around entrepreneurship policy, let's say, is exactly as you alluded to earlier in the interview, this sort of like intersectional factors that bear upon your ability to become an entrepreneurial culture or nation, like, you know, you need to have, I suppose, economic urban hubs in the cities for people to live and work and collaborate in. You need to have regular and stable, you know, power, internet connectivity, probably for access to digital economies as well, and educational levels too. So it's such an interesting policy area to work on, because in a way it actually kind of like feathers off into so many other different policy areas too.
But yeah, what are some of your happiest memories of your time here at Oxford now that things are coming to a close? I think you maybe have another week and a half or two weeks here. What's been some maybe happy kind of poetic reflections in your time here?
[Haibado] (1:00:50 - 1:02:00)
I think what I must enjoy was not in an order at all of importance. I really did enjoy the culture nights. I think those were really joyous moments to discover about each other and also opportunities for us to express what we really held dear to our hearts about home.
And I really enjoyed the sessions of gender at BSG as well, and all the story sharing from our classmates. And I would say that those are the couple very happy moments I had. But it was so difficult to talk about everything.
I mean, the year was so eventful in so many ways. And sometimes even thinking back, it has been a little bit overwhelming at times, but very positively. And going back, quote, unquote, to the normal life would be probably a bit more difficult than I first envisioned.
But this is one of the things that you get to live once in a lifetime, and it's incredible.
[Nick] (1:02:00 - 1:02:13)
And what's your favorite season in Oxford? Because it's also different here in England. I mean, winters are very cold and bitter and gloomy.
Summer's been pretty incredible recently. What did you like the most and why?
[Haibado] (1:02:14 - 1:02:20)
I'm used to winter temperatures that are at the lowest 23 degrees Celsius.
[Nick] (1:02:20 - 1:02:21)
Like summer here, basically.
[Haibado] (1:02:21 - 1:02:45)
Most definitely. Winter in the UK was a very difficult time for me. So I really enjoyed having the chance as well to stay in Oxford in and around during the summer.
It was amazing. And even though we ran a lot, I think it even enabled me to enjoy the sun a bit more. So definitely summer.
[Nick] (1:02:45 - 1:03:30)
Yeah, nice. And I should have asked this earlier when you were reflecting on your love for Djibouti and wanting to go back there and dedicate your life and career to making it a better place. But what's, I suppose, the most special area or part of your country that you love the most?
I remember when we went back for the Christmas break over the holidays and you sent these lovely videos and photos of an incredible turquoise water, you know, coloured beach and beautiful white sand. It looked like paradise. Could you sort of maybe provide a bit of colour and kind of texture to somewhere that's very special for you in Djibouti and where you're looking forward to being in two weeks time?
[Haibado] (1:03:31 - 1:04:18)
So I do remember the picture you're making reference. Exactly. That one was taken in Sable Blanc.
So Sable Blanc is a beach that is in between hills in the northern part of the country near the city of Tadjora. And you have similar turquoise waters as well in the few islands that we have in Djibouti. So there is a Moucha Island and Damascali Island, which are about 30 minutes by boat from the capital city.
So very accessible. And but my favourite place is another beach where the water is not that turquoise, but we really have, I think, the best sunset in the entire city. So it's called the Heron Beach.
And Heron is a specific bird that lives in that area of Djibouti.
[Nick] (1:04:19 - 1:04:19)
A bird?
[Haibado] (1:04:19 - 1:05:08)
Yes. So that's why it was named Heron. And it's a neighbourhood in the northern part of Djibouti city.
And I used to go there just after work. Usually, I will go with the drink and just sit by the beach and watch the sunset and then go home. And that would be, I think, probably one of the first places I would get to when I get go back home.
I think it's very peaceful, very beautiful. And a lot of childhood memories as well. Because it used to be the beach where I would go with my father for a swim.
And I still go to this day, but now with my little sister. So it just feels like, you know, also getting into that phase, that next phase of my life of adulthood.
[Nick] (1:05:08 - 1:05:09)
Yeah, yeah.
[Haibado] (1:05:09 - 1:05:12)
Now I'm the one driving people around. If they trust me with my driving, of course.
[Nick] (1:05:14 - 1:05:32)
I don't know if I should now you've said that. But yeah. And what are your, that's really beautiful reflection.
Thank you. And final question is, what are you looking forward to doing with your family when you get back? Have you got a big dinner or something planned to kind of have a bit of a reunion or what's on the agenda for your return?
[Haibado] (1:05:33 - 1:05:41)
I'm sure that this is something that my sister is planning. My big sister is planning very actively. I'm not really a party person, as you might have.
[Nick] (1:05:42 - 1:05:44)
I've seen you out and about at some cultural nights on the dance floor.
[Haibado] (1:05:45 - 1:06:26)
Yes. But I would say that, you know, I'm very timid naturally as a person. And, you know, I'm not really into big celebrations, but I do think that for anyone who, who concluded the MPP journey, it's really important to, you know, reward yourself and think about, of course, it was a very amazing human experience, but it was academically challenging as well.
And I don't specifically have anything in mind, but I'm probably going to plan something if my, my big sister is not already planning this. But yeah, to be honest, if it's left to me, you'll probably have been in a year time.
[Nick] (1:06:27 - 1:07:15)
One final question, if I can, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm constantly saying one more, but just final words of advice, maybe for people applying to, to come to study here at Oxford and the Blavatnik School of Government, um, who are coming from maybe, um, backgrounds similar to your own in Djibouti or other African countries too. So maybe, you know, there's a lot of Americans here, a lot of Australians, um, you know, could you sort of reflect on, I suppose, you know, I guess having the courage to, to sort of, you know, believe in yourself and to, you know, follow your dreams basically, even if it may be not is a very well-worn path because you are the first Djiboutian here at the Blavatnik School of Government and hopefully not the last, there'll be more to come after you.
[Haibado] (1:07:16 - 1:09:35)
Most definitely, that's a project that's one of the things I'm really looking forward to get actively engaged in when I get back home. I think personally, so my journey to the MPP, at least how I learned about the programme was, I think like many people through an alumni, an alumnus, sorry. And that person for me was Ilunga.
So Ilunga is actually the older brother of one of my friends that I met at Sciences Po. His name is Kiabuntu. And the thing is, back in 2016 and 2017, Facebook was still a thing.
So Kiabuntu had changed his profile picture and it was a picture of his brother at the graduation ceremony. And I just questioned him and it was really a very random conversation. And it was back in 2016.
So this is when I was first introduced to the MPP. And to be honest, it was always in the back of my mind since then. And I think I did not gather the courage to actually do more research about the programme before 2020.
It just seemed so out of reach. And also looking at the profile of the other alumnus, it seemed to be a programme that was more tailored to mid-career professionals, which I think is still the case. But the programme is also open to people who have more junior profiles like mine.
And when I applied, I reached out to Ilunga to ask him about his experience. But I think in retrospect, I really do regret not asking him, for example, for advice of how to structure my statement of purpose or how to maybe write the public analysis essay. I think there was a lot of, not only a question of confidence, but I did not want to bother him with any of that.
And I think this is one of the things and one of the most valuable lessons that I learned while being here is that, you know, a community is not only to share good moments with, it's also a resource. And more people than you think are actually willing to be helping you, but you have to express it. I mean, otherwise, if someone runs after you and says, I want to help you, I think you're not going to take it very positively.
There are chances you might be freaked out.
[Nick] (1:09:37 - 1:09:39)
So don't be afraid to ask, basically.
[Haibado] (1:09:39 - 1:11:04)
Don't be afraid to ask. And I think that all the alumnus of the MPP are very open about sharing the experiences, even giving you advice on how to structure the statement of purpose. And I think one thing, another advice would be to not only reach out or not be afraid to ask for help.
It would be also to try to do as much research as you can to see if this program actually is fitting you. Because sometimes you would think, oh, it's amazing. It's only a 12 month program, but it is a 12 month program.
It's a program that requires you to be engaged throughout its whole duration. Exactly. So make sure the MPP is for you.
And for that, ask people and trust yourself that you're making the right choice. You lose nothing by applying. I think also another information for people applying for developing countries is that most of the time, if you are from a developing country, you don't have to pay fees to apply.
So the financial barrier is basically non-existent here. And I think there is no cap in how many times you can apply for a degree at the University of Oxford as well. So try your luck.
Learn from your experiences and do not give up. If it's something that you really want to pursue, it is something that you can have access to.
[Nick] (1:11:04 - 1:11:25)
Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Haibado. It's a real pleasure to have you on the program, but also to have got to know you this year.
You're a really wonderful person and I look forward to keeping in touch over the coming years as far away as Djibouti and Australia are. Always good communications and I hope we meet again sometime.
[Haibado] (1:11:25 - 1:11:46)
Thank you very much, Nick. I'm feeling a bit emotional at the thought that this is your last one. I'm very happy to have this conversation with you today.
And yes, I do wish you all the very best and I hope that our paths will cross each other very soon, but at least in the next few years.
[Nick] (1:11:46 - 1:11:47)
Très bien. Merci.
[Haibado] (1:11:48 - 1:11:48)
Merci beaucoup.