Originally published on Oxford Policy Podcast.
In this episode, Nick Fabbri speaks with Gargi Sharma Goel about her life and career in New Delhi, India, her work in the Ministry of Finance and Indian Revenue Service, key economic and tax policy interests, her journey to the Master of Public Policy at Oxford, balancing parenthood with studies, and the happiest memories from her time in the UK.
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Gargi Sharma Goel is career civil servant, part of the Indian Revenue Service, and works in the Ministry of Finance of the government of India. Gargi lives in New Delhi. Gargi focuses on tax policy and has been involved in the preparation of the Union Budget. She keeps a close watch on the pulse of the Indian economy and has undertaken many policy initiatives for its growth and development. Her key area of interest has been the utility of tax policy for socio-economic welfare, and she is interested in exploring tax policy as a tool for promoting equitable growth across all sections of society.
Gargi's other field of interest has been international taxation and transfer pricing. She has also been involved with OECD two-Pillar International Tax negotiations for tax-sharing in the digitalised and borderless world, where she endeavours to establish cooperative and fair tax sharing mechanisms.
Gargi is a World Bank Scholar.
Transcript below ^_^
[Nick Fabbri] (0:00 - 0:46)
A very warm welcome dear friends and policy lovers to another episode of the Oxford Policy Podcast. My name is Nick Fabbri and I'll be your host for today's episode which is part of the Students of the Master of Public Policy series where we shine a spotlight on the amazing scholars and people who make up the MPP here in Oxford. We're lucky to be joined today by Gargi Sharma, MPP student, World Bank Scholar and member of Regents Park College.
Gargi is from New Delhi in India and works as a Senior Civil Servant in the Indian Revenue Service within the Ministry of Finance. So welcome Gargi and thanks for being on the show. Thank you so much Nick.
Wonderful. So for our listeners who are not as familiar with you and your story, could you start off by telling us a bit about yourself?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (0:48 - 1:38)
Yes, sure Nick. I'm Gargi. I'm a Senior Civil Servant in India.
I work in the Indian Revenue Service. And apart from that, I'm a mother of two kids, Maitreyi and Shakya. And I have worked in the Ministry of Finance for also many years, like maybe more than 15 years now.
And it has been an incredible journey for me. The career has been checkered with lots many different kinds of assignments and different kinds of roles that I have been through. So it has all added up to different flavours to my career journey.
Yeah, here I am sitting with you.
[Nick Fabbri] (1:38 - 1:49)
Wonderful. And you were telling me before that your friends describe you as being full of verve and a sense of joy for life. Do you want to sort of expand a bit on that in terms of understanding who you are as a person?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (1:49 - 2:25)
Yeah. Yeah, you described me like I'm having a lot of verve or spirit, a lot of enthusiasm, a spring of life, maybe kind of. Yeah, I do have an enthusiasm towards life as such.
And I find myself to be always very curious, very investigative, interrogative about life as such. And I like to live it with the full flow of it. So that's what makes me and that's what the reason probably that I'm here at Oxford now.
[Nick Fabbri] (2:26 - 2:51)
Part of that curiosity. I wish my friends would describe me in such terms. I don't know if they'd have such lovely and glowing and poetic descriptions.
But anyway, so can you paint a picture of what life was like for you in New Delhi and India, which I imagine must be very different to Oxford and gloomy England. And as you know, I'm visiting Kolkata later in the year for a friend's wedding. And I'm very excited to explore India and to visit you.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (2:52 - 3:50)
Yeah, I'm so excited to have you in India and in New Delhi. So New Delhi is the political capital of India. And it is also a nerve centre for all the political activities in India.
And since my career journey has mostly been centred in New Delhi, I have seen through the ups and downs that India has seen through all those different prisms. And in New Delhi is a very, very cosmopolitan city. So people from all different parts of the country, they come and it has different shades, different cultures.
And it's a melting pot of all these different, and India is such a diverse country, as you know, that has just so many regions.
[Nick Fabbri] (3:50 - 3:52)
Over 30 regions, isn't it? Different languages.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (3:53 - 4:29)
Yeah, exactly. And New Delhi is the composite culture of all those things mixed together. So it provides you with a lens that you can see all the flavours of India in one place.
And then it also has a different layers to it, like a lot of migrant labours in India that come from the smaller cities in India. They come to Delhi for their livelihoods. It gives a different kind of contour, different kind of economic structure also to New Delhi.
[Nick Fabbri] (4:29 - 4:36)
And how many people would live in Delhi as a whole? Like, I mean, what are we talking in terms of overall population size of the city?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (4:37 - 4:41)
It's a considerable population. It's a very crowded city because of that. Yeah.
[Nick Fabbri] (4:41 - 4:58)
Because I'm obviously from Australia, as you know, and we have, I think, about 27 million in our country all up. And I think there have been people who have mentioned that, you know, some cities, certainly in China, I know Chongqing exceeds that in its population, but there must be Indian cities as well, which...
[Garga Sharma Goel] (4:58 - 5:02)
Of course, of course. So we compete China in the population dynamics.
[Nick Fabbri] (5:02 - 5:03)
That's it. Yeah.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (5:03 - 5:05)
Amazing. Yeah. Yes.
[Nick Fabbri] (5:06 - 5:29)
And so before coming to Oxford and the MPP, you worked at the Ministry of Finance and within the Indian Revenue Service, where you hold a senior role in the Joint Secretary rank. So could you talk a bit about the work you've been doing in your career over the recent sort of 15 years or so? And I guess, what a couple of the highlights have been in terms of your career to date?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (5:30 - 6:02)
Well, yeah, I would love to speak about that. I had, as I told, an interesting career journey with lots of different kinds of experiences. I have primarily, my career has been in the area of international taxation.
And of late, I was working in the tax policy division, where I was part of the union budget team. And that was definitely a very high point in my career and has been a very interesting experience as such.
[Nick Fabbri] (6:03 - 6:05)
The union budget is the budget for...
[Garga Sharma Goel] (6:05 - 6:06)
For the country.
[Nick Fabbri] (6:06 - 6:07)
Yeah.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (6:07 - 7:11)
Yeah. So I was part of the union budget team from the tax policy side. And, and it's a, it's a whole different kind of experience because budget is, you know, it's such a sacrosanct and confidential part of any government procedure.
So you have to have a lot of, a lot of integrity regarding the procedures, and you have to abide by too many rules. And, and then it is a very time constrained thing that within a given period of time, you have to produce a legislative document, which is to be passed in the parliament. And then you have to follow all the procedures for getting this, this bill, this finance bill, passed in both the houses of the parliament.
And for as a personal side, it has been a very big, very challenging job for me because it's, it's, it's like we work for ungodly hours and...
[Nick Fabbri] (7:12 - 7:13)
Around budget time, especially.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (7:13 - 8:27)
Budget time, especially. Yes. I would be returning home back at 10pm, 11pm, or maybe sometimes 1am in the night, 2am in the night.
And we've been working within the confines of our office premises, we are not about allowed to move around. And yeah, and it had been a difficult time for my family as well to put up with my schedule, especially my kids would not be seeing me for many days altogether. And for me too, it was like, apart from that, it's like, it's a high pressure job, and a lot of stress.
And so balancing everything. And at the same time, I was writing my Oxford application, as I told you, yeah. So it was, it was definitely a very challenging thing for me to, I would wake up in the early morning when the whole house is sleeping and write my application in the piece.
And then I would rush to the office and do my budget things. And yeah, it had been a very interesting experience. It would be, I will always remember that as a cherished memory.
[Nick Fabbri] (8:28 - 8:39)
Yeah, well, the year in Oxford must have been a welcome break from all that intense work, I imagine. Yeah, absolutely. What drove you to get into economic policy and the civil service in the first place?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (8:40 - 9:17)
I mean, I was always, I always wanted to see what best could be done for the redistribution of resources. And as we have a lot of inequality that I can see in my country, and I would always want to do something to contribute in whatever small bit that I can, getting the things circulated, getting the bridging the divide between haves and have nots. And that has been primary driver for me to pursue this.
[Nick Fabbri] (9:17 - 9:23)
And that's socioeconomic divide. And I suppose inequity is particularly profound in India, isn't it?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (9:23 - 10:03)
It is definitely, yes. And as we are, as we are economically growing, and at the same time, there has been kind of jobless growth, which is being viewed in India, which is something problematic thing, which we need to address very strongly and very forcefully. So all these things brings together to tax policy to find different solutions to incentivising different sectors through tax policy and, and give economic support to the people who really need it.
[Nick Fabbri] (10:03 - 10:29)
And how much in India, how much kind of leverage does the federal government, so the union budget, have over the entire country, or I suppose, you know, construct of India or modern India, because there's obviously 30 plus regions, which probably have their own budgets and things as well, is it actually difficult to sort of work across that federal model with the devolved, you know, state or regional jurisdictions too?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (10:30 - 11:20)
Yeah, so we have a centralised union budget, and then we have sharing, the sharing of revenue, and each state has their own share of revenue, which is, which is also the part of the budget and the finance, there is a finance committee, which decides like how much share each state is going to have. And then we have consultative a procedure with the federal, with the states and the centre, and then we decide on so many different formulas. And that is how like it has been done.
Yeah. So basically, it is the central union budget is the key document to see the overall picture of the country is going to.
[Nick Fabbri] (11:20 - 11:54)
Huge responsibility for 1.4 billion people, remarkable stuff. You've also done a lot of work with the OECD two pillar international tax negotiations for tax sharing in the digitalised and borderless world. It's quite a mouthful for me to get more to get around alone conceptually.
So maybe in very simple terms, what is that kind of international, global economic governance policy work? What does that look like for you? And what does all that mean, basically, to our listeners?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (11:55 - 13:19)
Well, the current digital economy has posed a enormous challenge on the administrators to see how the tax is going to be the fair share of taxes that each country is going to get. And a place in a modern economy where, like the commerce, e-commerce is being done through different platforms like eBay, Amazon, they're based somewhere else, the market is somewhere else, the consumers are somewhere else and producers. It's a very complex system.
And in that complexity, how to navigate your fair share of taxes for the country, it becomes an enormous challenge. And that is what Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 are targeting to address. However, the negotiations are still on and I don't know what is going to be the future of it.
But the world is coming together to find solutions to this big problem, because so much of tax revenue is getting lost because of base erosion and profit shifting that is happening because of so many tax havens, the corporates.
[Nick Fabbri] (13:20 - 13:45)
Like British Virgin Islands or the Caymans or even in Ireland as well, the double Dutch ice cream sandwich they used to speak about, I think, where companies would sort of locate themselves or domicile themselves in low tax jurisdictions. And ultimately, what happens is that you deny everyday people who are most in need, the ones we talked about in Delhi, for instance, of tax revenue, which builds hospitals, schools, roads, bridges, etc. Right?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (13:46 - 14:31)
Yeah. So that is the reason why even there's a new idea which has been floating among people now. Why do they question the taxation system as such?
What is the integrity of the taxation system as such when the corporates are evading so much of taxes and the poor, salaried people are giving the taxes? I mean, people are actually questioning the entire taxation system. Why are we paying taxes at all when there are people who can easily evade it through the tax havens and all?
So these are big questions that the world needs to come together and resolve and find solutions to.
[Nick Fabbri] (14:32 - 15:20)
Stunning stuff. And it's just remarkable to think that everyday people kind of get squeezed and have trouble paying their own income taxes and all other variety of kinds of imposts. And then you've got major global corporations which seemingly can get away with paying nothing in Australia or in India, for instance.
Coming toward the master of public policy and your decision to come here to Oxford University for a year. So we're at the end of our time here at the MPP, sadly. I can't even say we're approaching the end.
We're basically at the end. It's the middle of August and we're nearly finished with our summer projects. We've been here for about 11 years.
Sorry, 11 months. Goodness, I'm going to edit that out. It's like some detailed PhD students maybe.
So it's remarkable how quickly time flies here.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (15:21 - 15:23)
The good time flies very quickly.
[Nick Fabbri] (15:23 - 15:37)
Exactly, when you're having fun and with wonderful people as well. So I suppose looking back, you know, when you were doing your application in the early hours of the morning, as you said, all those years ago before coming here, what drove you to apply to the degree here?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (15:41 - 17:16)
Well, it happened during the COVID pandemic time when a bunch of officers, including me, we tried to create a platform, a COVID help desk kind of thing for the people of our department where we can provide the necessary support in terms of medical consultation or medicines or oxygen suppliers and ventilators and so many different things. So we were working on that and we, I mean, at that time, we were all in the lockdown. We didn't have too much of work as as work in the office.
So there was a time when I had ample time to think about myself and how this volunteer work that I'm doing can, I mean, it actually kind of motivated me to upgrade my own skills and expand my own as my own self as a person, you know, and I thought education can be a better education can be a good opportunity to expand and build up on my own personal skills. And also, since it was a time that we were all the world was at a stand still and everybody was introspecting themselves.
[Nick Fabbri] (17:17 - 17:24)
It's sort of mid 2020 when lockdowns were still happening and we were not sure about the pathway out of this pandemic.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (17:24 - 17:49)
Yeah. So that I had a lot of introspection and it was an outcome of this introspection and all that I've thought that let me challenge myself with this education and let me push my frontiers a little forward to go ahead with a prestigious place like Oxford.
[Nick Fabbri] (17:50 - 17:50)
Yes.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (17:51 - 17:54)
So yeah, that was the motivation behind and I here am.
[Nick Fabbri] (17:55 - 18:39)
Remarkable. I love thinking, you know, we've been here with 150 other students for nearly a and it's always remarkable to think about the journeys that they all had and all the individual decision points that they took and the impactful moments in their own lives, which, you know, drove them to actually write up all the papers, the personal statements, the essays, the references and things, and then actually launch that application.
You know, we're all kind of like, you know, walking down essentially 150 different paths, you know, and then we all converge in one place. It's quite a remarkable thing. So thank you for sharing that.
Looking back on the degree, how did you find the MPP overall? And what were some of your favourite memories and highlights, maybe wonderful lectures you attended or the people as well?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (18:40 - 19:37)
Well, I can speak and speak and speak about this. MPP had been incredible, incredible, like I had not imagined it to be like this. And I had some conception of it, but it came out to be much more than that.
And first and most remarkable thing about MPP is the cohorts, my cohorts, each and every one is so special. And they are a treasure trove in themselves. Talking to each one of them is so enriching.
And you learn so much from them. It's so interesting. And they come all, all of them come from different countries, different backgrounds.
And suddenly the world shrinking for you, you know, the person sitting in Chile, I would never have imagined somebody coming from Chile and talking to me and, you know, beautiful image, the world shrinking to Lecture Theatre One or Minamori Forum, yes.
[Nick Fabbri] (19:38 - 19:40)
Talking to Chileans like Ben Katz.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (19:40 - 19:50)
Exactly. And you read about Marquez and you've been imagining Colombia and there are Colombians sitting in front of you.
[Nick Fabbri] (19:50 - 19:53)
Yeah, you can talk to them. And about Marquez as well.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (19:53 - 20:10)
Yeah, about Marquez, of course. So, yeah, it was, it's just incredible to see. I mean, now I can, I can really say that I can go around in any part of the world and knock a door and there is one door that is open for me across the world.
[Nick Fabbri] (20:11 - 20:11)
That's telling.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (20:11 - 20:12)
Yeah.
[Nick Fabbri] (20:12 - 20:15)
And some favourite, maybe lecturers as well you have.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (20:15 - 20:22)
Yeah. So I would never be able to get over Joe's lecture, the philosophy professor.
[Nick Fabbri] (20:22 - 20:23)
Professor Joe Wolf.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (20:23 - 20:33)
Professor Joe Wolf, yeah. So, I mean, his lectures were like music to ears. No wonder he's the president of the Royal Society of Philosophy.
[Nick Fabbri] (20:33 - 20:37)
Yes. Well, it doesn't get much better than that, does it? It's sort of, you know, as a philosopher, you probably, yeah.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (20:38 - 20:49)
Yeah. I mean, you've made it. Yeah.
And this was my first exposure to philosophy as a discipline. So, and coming straight from Joe was, I mean, I cannot be more fortunate.
[Nick Fabbri] (20:50 - 21:04)
Did it illuminate some of those things you saw in India with regard to socio-economic reform, tax policy and the COVID experience? Like you think about utilitarianism and, I don't know, you know, equality and things like that?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (21:04 - 22:04)
Yeah, certainly. Like, I can now dissect all these policies from a philosophical prism, which I was, I would have never done earlier. He has given us with so many philosophical tools to navigate your own consciousness, you know, while you are framing some policy decision.
And it is actually remarkable. Like, I can see that how I view democracy as such and what different narratives and versions of democracy that are now I have read through Joe's lectures, you know, and I can re-imagine a different kind of democracy now. And he's doing that work, I think, democracy for the future world, you know, how is the democracy as such is going to take a new version because of the political developments in the current modern world.
[Nick Fabbri] (22:04 - 22:30)
Also looking at cities and equity and community as well. Remarkable kind of framing of, I suppose, how we all live together and live happy and prosperous and healthy lives. You mentioned as well about the people, you know, are there any one or two memories maybe that stand out of people you've met have been particularly, you know, impactful or memorable in terms of, you know, you go and have a coffee with them or something and you learn about all the remarkable things I've done.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (22:31 - 23:21)
So, as I told, there's so much of variation, so much of range in our MPPs, people, I mean, our cohorts come in just fresh undergrads and people with so much of experience like me and others. So I would recall my coffee on with Jackie, our cohort from the US. Yeah.
And the way she has worked against the gun violence in the US, the activism that she has, the bravery, the kind of enthusiasm, the steps that she had taken and the way she has stood for that, you know, and it's remarkable to see from, I mean, it's very inspiring.
[Nick Fabbri] (23:21 - 23:58)
It is, it is. And, you know, you've come to the school as an experienced professional with substantial work experience, very senior role in government. And then, you know, someone like Jackie's in her early 20s has just finished university as well.
But it's such a beautiful mix when you've got this kind of like, I'm in my early 30s, for instance, like, you know, you've got all people at different stages of their careers and personal journeys, and it all sort of, you know, comes together in a beautiful synergy. But could you sort of reflect on how you found the degree coming here as someone who's had substantial work experience and some things that, you know, have you found your journey?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (24:00 - 25:45)
Well, despite having a long career journey, there have been so many things that I have learned from here. And there have been, there have been so many dimensions to my personality now that I can add to because of my whole MPP course. And it has offered me so many new insights about how the world is functioning.
For instance, this carbon driven economy, the modern economy or the future economy is going to be driven by carbon content of each product. That is something I was not even thinking about back in India, is something illuminating for me. The reason why I have chosen that to pursue in my summer project about environmental taxes and all that I'm working on now.
So yeah, it has, it has, the MPP has given me this amazing kind of array, this array of new exposures and new topics to build on and to see things from different perspectives. Of course, I was carrying some perspective, some worldview of myself, but after coming here and listening to so many wonderful lecturers and lecturers, um, uh, knowing through their thought process, navigating through their ways, um, it has added so much of value to my being quite mind expanding, I suppose,
[Nick Fabbri] (25:45 - 26:00)
or, you know, kaleidoscopic in a way you, you come here and you, um, expand the horizons of, I suppose you're, you're thinking about policy, um, politics, um, philosophy, you know, the different people you meet, a sense of what's possible, right?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (26:00 - 26:00)
Yeah.
[Nick Fabbri] (26:01 - 26:05)
So like maybe it's activism or something that you are more aware of or whatever.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (26:05 - 26:45)
The political activists that we have so many of them in, and they have all been working in different fields. Like for example, Mariana, she's working for the Mexican, uh, there's so much of female, uh, beside in Mexico. I mean, you're learning so many things from all of our colleagues and Prakriti doing political activism in Nepal, the political literacy that is so much important for today's, I mean, for the developing world females, you know, how much important it is to know what, uh, why you should be interested in politics.
You should be aware. I mean, that is something that is so empowering.
[Nick Fabbri] (26:45 - 27:20)
Yeah. So all these things, yeah. It's an intellectual feast and, um, you know, you've done the degree obviously, um, and now you're in your summer project, but you've also balanced being a parent throughout your time while studying here.
Could you sort of, and that's actually quite a, uh, a large and wonderful community of parents here who are also studying and they've got, some of them have got their families here in Oxford. Others are sort of doing, doing it, uh, remote or long distance parenting, you know, um, uh, how have you found, have you found those sort of dual responsibilities as, as being a parent while also studying?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (27:22 - 28:51)
Well, um, I owe it to my family that, uh, they have let me come here and, uh, they have given me that freedom, that space to pursue my dreams. I heartily thanks my kids and my husband and my parents who have been a big support to me for big, without which I wouldn't ever have been able to come here and do. And, uh, being here, half of my heart is always there with my kids back in India.
Half of my mind is there all the time. So it is very challenging. Emotionally, it is very challenging to be here all alone with, without the family.
And at the same time, you're, uh, you know, that they're, they have their studies, they have their, this, and, uh, uh, they have their small needs. So I keep on, you know, talking to them and doing my part as much as possible. There's so many things.
Sometimes my daughter would need some, uh, assistance in studies. So I would do a video call to her and I would just explain those concerts or those things to her. Those are small things.
Yeah. Sometimes she would just say, my, my shampoo is finished, mama. Can you order that?
So I have to find time to do all those small things. So that is how I'm balancing life here.
[Nick Fabbri] (28:52 - 29:02)
And your kids, um, and, and husband actually came over here as well, right? To Oxford for about a month and you did a lot of travel as well. I mean, I was lucky enough to Shakya at a dinner at Christchurch.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (29:02 - 29:31)
Yeah. That was a beautiful time we had together. Yeah.
Uh, so my, my kids were, my family was here and we went to Spain. We had, we, we went to Barcelona and Sevilla and had a lovely time there. And then I was very happy that they were here while the term time was there.
So they could first hand see experience how their mother is taking part in lectures and different, participating in different events.
[Nick Fabbri] (29:31 - 29:33)
Like the cultural night. Yeah.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (29:35 - 29:43)
Yeah. Yeah. So it was a, uh, very opportune time for her to present her skill and yeah.
And we danced together also.
[Nick Fabbri] (29:43 - 29:51)
That was incredible. Yeah. Did it inspire your kids to want to follow in mom's footsteps and come to Oxford or overseas?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (29:51 - 30:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
They are, they are very inspired and particularly like they love the beautiful libraries that we study and you know, it's so fancy.
[Nick Fabbri] (30:01 - 30:02)
Yeah.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (30:02 - 30:05)
It's a fairy tale, isn't it? It's a fairy tale. Yes.
[Nick Fabbri] (30:05 - 30:50)
So, so coming back to your summer project, which is what you're currently working on, on now, and you mentioned it before, but you worked in tax and economic policy for a long time and you saw the MPP and it's capstone summer project, which is where you spend sort of two months working on a policy issue within an organisation, whether it's in the private sector, an NGO or government or some sort of think tank or whatever it might be and produce a report for them and also the school.
But you really wanted to do something different in your summer project compared to what you'd done traditionally in tax and economic policy. So you're now looking at carbon border adjustment mechanism regulation, CBAM, at the Commonwealth Secretariat in London and Geneva. Could you tell us a bit about that work?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (30:52 - 32:18)
Well, as I told earlier, I was fascinated with this new buzzword of carbon driven economy and what I read preliminary with the preliminary studies that I did over this carbon border mechanism, adjustment mechanism, I was a little intrigued about what implication it is going to create on the developing world and particularly for my country. What I'm finding is that there's a lot of controversy over the countries like EU and UK are coming up with their carbon border adjustment mechanisms where there's differentiation in the prices, carbon prices, and the developed world has a carbon price put on their producers, while the developing worlds are still grappling with how to actually price their carbon. And there's so much of disparity now that the coming up of UK and EU CBAM, there's going to be a huge impact on the trade of these developing countries.
So I'm working on...
[Nick Fabbri] (32:18 - 32:22)
Because they can't make those carbon accounting standards anymore?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (32:22 - 33:46)
We do not have a carbon pricing mechanism as yet in most of the developing countries and it's carbon intensive industries actually. Most of the developing countries are having carbon intensive industries and they are into this carbon intensive industry. The producers are mostly into this and we are heavily dependent on the export to the developed world of these carbon intensive industries, products, especially like India is a leading exporter of most of the in-scope CBAM products to UK and as well as EU.
So it has a huge dependence on these exports and we need time to transition. We talk about just transition and so there are a lot of question marks on the implications that the CBAM is going to have and the world has to come together. The global south, I don't want to use the word global south and north, but the different levels of economies that different parts of the world has, they have to come together and WTO, because WTO has a very crucial role in aligning all these efforts together to come to find consensual cooperative solutions to these trade disputes that are going to happen because of CBAM and traditionally...
[Nick Fabbri] (33:46 - 33:50)
The merger of economic and environmental standards through global economic governance.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (33:50 - 34:28)
Yeah, yeah. So when the WTO was formed like in, I think, 1947 and around that period, then whatever rules that were drawn at that time, they are not compatible with the current environmental laws needs, you know, they have to be aligned with that. They need to have a sustainable trade regime now and WTO has to play a very crucial role and that's why it needs to reincarnate itself, redesign itself, its rules to be more aligned with the environmental needs, actually.
[Nick Fabbri] (34:29 - 34:34)
And where does the Commonwealth Secretariat come into this picture and how did you secure a role there?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (34:35 - 35:12)
Well, Commonwealth comes as a natural choice because it is a congregation of 56 countries. Most of them are from the developing world and India is a part of it and they were all, I mean, it gave me a platform to pursue my, pursue the topic or pursue the subject on which I want to work. So that's how I get associated with them and they have, fortunately, they have asked me to produce a paper on that.
[Nick Fabbri] (35:12 - 35:16)
And you're going to London a couple of times a week to Marlborough Palace?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (35:16 - 35:18)
Marlborough House, yeah.
[Nick Fabbri] (35:18 - 35:19)
Goodness, which is actually an old palace.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (35:20 - 35:33)
It was an old palace, yeah. It's an interesting thing to work, sit in the palace and work for beautiful rooms around and beautiful tapestry, wall-to-wall paintings of a palace and navigate.
[Nick Fabbri] (35:34 - 35:44)
It's like an episode of The Crown or something, yeah. Well, and what are you doing in Geneva? So you're actually going there to do, you're with the Trade and Ocean Division, isn't it, or something, is that it?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (35:45 - 36:19)
Trade and Ocean Division at the Commonwealth Secretariat. At Geneva, I'll be working with the Permanent Mission of India to WTO, actually. Oh, cool.
Yeah, yeah. So WTO, as I told you, it has such a crucial role and it was the subject that I wanted to pursue. So I really look forward to be there and learn a lot from them, what is happening there, to be meeting people there.
And we have professors here who have a good network there, so they have connected me there.
[Nick Fabbri] (36:20 - 36:24)
And brush up on your French as well. Yes. Good.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (36:25 - 36:26)
I eat a lot of Swiss chocolates.
[Nick Fabbri] (36:27 - 36:56)
It's just very good. Well, you spoke also earlier, and I suppose over the last couple of weeks, we've been catching up around Oxford about the UK's influence on Indian public service, and I suppose the bureaucracy as well. But having now worked inside the UK bureaucracy in the Commonwealth Secretariat and in London, what are some of the differences and similarities you've noticed and what might you like to sort of take back to the Indian public service as well, when you go back to your role?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (36:57 - 38:28)
Well, that's a very interesting question. Actually, India has borrowed its bureaucratic structure and a lot of structures of all the institutions and organisations that we have, have been borrowed from the British institutions only and we follow their legacy actually. And the imperial civil services at the colonial time has been transformed into the Indian, current Indian civil services.
And after working here at the Commonwealth Secretariat and the UKCBAM, when I have started invest, I mean, going deeper into the ways and procedures that the UK government makes, takes for their policymaking and what kind of steps and what kind of research that they do, particularly, I was greatly impressed and impressed with the way, the deep researches that they have done on each and every aspect of like, there, I was going through the trade documents of the UK.
And for every single country of the world, they have a huge document for every country, they have a very consolidated, very comprehensive document, something that is worthwhile taking back home, actually, and I would want my own country policies to be made with that in-depth research.
[Nick Fabbri] (38:28 - 38:29)
Robustness as well.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (38:29 - 38:36)
Yes, robustness, yes. It adds so much of value, it adds so much of strength to the policies that we are making.
[Nick Fabbri] (38:36 - 38:55)
Yeah, I think there's probably also value in having a broader international network as well as a policymaker and a civil servant back because now you can swap ideas with people here in the UK and pick up the phone to someone in Geneva or the WTO as well. I mean, that's a huge dividend to be taking away from your time here.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (38:55 - 39:08)
Absolutely, absolutely. That's what I'm looking forward to, working on that. Yeah.
Harnessing the potential that I have achieved here.
[Nick Fabbri] (39:08 - 40:04)
Stunning, yeah. At a broader level, you know, this whole question of the relationship between the UK and India is quite a, you know, it's historical, it's laden with a historical kind of weight and even trauma because of the legacy of, you know, colonialism. So, the other day we were at a college for a friend's birthday, Mansfield College, and, you know, looking at the big, beautiful buildings as well.
And you mentioned that there was a city in India which had a similar kind of almost English style of architecture, right? So, there's a the lingering kind of architectural influence in India as well. But how have you sort of felt, you know, being here in Oxford in England?
And in a way, it's sort of like at the heart of the colonial project. Does that sort of, and you and your other Indian colleagues as well, does that sort of bring up, I don't know, questions which you grapple with in terms of the legacy, the Yes.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (40:06 - 41:24)
The UK, the British colonialism had a very deep impact in India. Every other architecture, every other city has some or other footprints or some other imprints of British architecture, British style of, we have imbibed British style of living in so many of our own culture now, you know, so many words in language, so many food habits, so many things, the English tea, there's so many things that has, is so much part of Indian ethos, you know, and, and especially literature and the education system, especially like we, I'm personally, I have read, As You Like It, and the Shakespearean play As You Like It, Twelfth Night in my high school in my secondary and, and after coming here, I am seeing that watching them in the play being played at the Town Hall in Oxford. So it's a remarkable experience for me. And, and it's like a continuum that I can see, you know, I'm carrying all those visions, I was carrying those visions from afar.
[Nick Fabbri] (41:24 - 41:33)
Because you grew up reading, and it's become part of your, like, your intellectual landscape, or hinterland.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (41:33 - 41:57)
Yeah, yeah, true. And after coming here, when you're, I'm seeing things from close quarters, I can, it is a, it's, it's very different experience, you know, like, reading Jane Austen, sitting, sitting at my room in India, and coming here and being in the place where she was, she actually wrote it.
[Nick Fabbri] (41:58 - 41:58)
Yeah.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (41:58 - 42:08)
Or Aldous Huxley, I've been grown up, my father been talking about Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, and seeing him, I mean, studying at the Balliol College here.
[Nick Fabbri] (42:09 - 42:15)
So it's, it's, Evelyn War, I think, was it one of the colleges on, on Turl Street, or Tolkien as well, or The Rings.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (42:15 - 42:15)
Yes.
[Nick Fabbri] (42:17 - 42:22)
Him and the Inklings, I think, like C.S. Lewis and things used to drink at the Eagle and Child.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (42:22 - 42:23)
Yes, yes, yes.
[Nick Fabbri] (42:23 - 42:27)
Go and pray at the Oratory, which is just around the corner from where we are here at the Bonfatnik School of Government.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (42:27 - 42:28)
Yeah.
[Nick Fabbri] (42:28 - 42:51)
And how is the, like, I mean, obviously, independence was in 1947, in India, from, from England, after World War Two, etc. Like, how is the, how are like modern kind of relations with, between England and India today? And how is like that colonial legacy remembered?
Because it's so profoundly shaped Indian society, but also, India has profoundly shaped English society too, or Britain, you know.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (42:51 - 44:17)
So yeah, it's, it has been a mutual exchange of culture that I can clearly see a lot of remarkable, a lot of significant Indian influence in places like London, especially we have, we have developed all new cuisine, like British Indian food, which is like, butter chicken and all these are like, typically British Indian, it has become a national food of Britain. So yeah, these things are there. And the kind of, the kind of legacy that we carry from the British Association, and we have so much of fusion of literature, we have so much a fusion of culture in so many ways.
Language. Language. Yeah.
So, so, English has become almost a first language of our country, like most of the younger generations are almost all English, reading in English. Yeah. So it has, and it has also helped India to leverage on its own potential, because being and having a good command over English that gives an edge to the Indians to proclaim their identity and have a good set of jobs.
[Nick Fabbri] (44:18 - 44:23)
Because the diaspora is so huge, you can go and work in North America or Australia or England itself.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (44:24 - 45:00)
It definitely gives us an edge over many other country people. And in fact, I've met many people, one of our Mongolian colleagues was telling me that I wished we had a British colonialism history. So that we could be, because yeah, because there are few countries, like Japanese people, they always feel that, that they should, they could have a better English command.
It is a practical thing, but it is true. It's like, I think it is a good thing for India.
[Nick Fabbri] (45:01 - 45:31)
So we're coming to the end of the interview now. You mentioned some literature before, so Huxley, Jane Austen, Shakespeare, etc. We sort of bonded over talking about favourite books and literature and things we're reading as well.
So what have you been reading recently? And I suppose just to wrap up the interview, do you have a kind of a feeling of what your literary experience of UK life has been like? If there's something that particularly relates to you in a poem or a book that you think of when you think of England?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (45:32 - 46:20)
I think I have grown up reading Pride and Prejudice from Jane Austen, Oscar Wilde, Shakespeare, all of them have shaped my own literary worldview, you know. Then Keats, then, sorry, the Shelley, and, and the modern authors, like, even modern Indian authors like Amitav Ghosh, he's studied from Oxford, and he's one of my favourite writers from India. So all these literary journey that I had, and I'm seeing them culminating in here in Oxford, yeah.
So it's, it's a, it's a fascinating experience altogether.
[Nick Fabbri] (46:21 - 46:23)
And you're reading a book on Oppenheimer at the moment.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (46:23 - 46:58)
Oh, yes. That is amazing. It's a beautiful biography, which is written and the movie, of course, was an amazing movie.
And stepping into the shoes of a physicist and who also had such an eclectic reading habit, he was a great admirer of different literary, he has read Dostoyevsky so much, you know, the Russian author. Then he, he also mastered Sanskrit.
[Nick Fabbri] (46:58 - 46:59)
Really?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (46:59 - 46:59)
Yeah.
[Nick Fabbri] (46:59 - 47:04)
And of course, when he, he has read Bhagavad Gita.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (47:04 - 47:16)
Yes, he has read Bhagavad Gita. And he actually was very influenced by the philosophy, the Hindu philosophy, the, the philosophy that has been propounded in Gita.
[Nick Fabbri] (47:16 - 47:17)
Extraordinary.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (47:17 - 47:55)
Yeah. So what one particular thing that he writes about is that discipline is very liberating for him. He was a very, very hardworking, very workaholic.
And that's what he wrote that from the Indian philosophy, he could, he could learn to admire, or he could learn to accept that discipline is a very liberating thing. It liberates the soul, it liberates the spirit. That's what I mean.
So I'm happy to read, like the influence that Indian philosophy can have on a Western physicist.
[Nick Fabbri] (47:56 - 48:12)
Well, we're coming to the end of the interview now. And I just wonder whether you have any final words of advice for people thinking about applying for the MPP, to go on this big journey that you yourself have been on? Whether you've got any kind of parting words of wisdom?
[Garga Sharma Goel] (48:13 - 49:13)
Well, one last word I would definitely like to say, always question the status quo. Always question what is there and how you can, what contribution that you can make in improvising or improving it for the betterment of the world. And this is my mantra, wherever I have worked in, wherever I have served in different parts of the government.
So this is one thing that I have endeavoured in my own career journey to do. Wherever I have been posted in my career journey, I have tried to bring things into a better shape, to push yourself a little ahead, a little more, so that you have a better world to live in. So that's the motto of our own MPP.
[Nick Fabbri] (49:13 - 49:16)
Better served, better coffined and better led.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (49:16 - 49:21)
Yeah, better led. Yeah, so let's, yeah.
[Nick Fabbri] (49:21 - 49:36)
Good, wonderful. Gargi, well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been absolutely stunning talking to you as always.
And thank you for your friendship over the year. I look forward to keeping in touch and learning from you and well into the future. So thank you very much.
[Garga Sharma Goel] (49:37 - 49:52)
It's likewise, Nick. I'm fortunate to have a friend like you and I really, really look forward to stay in touch and learn more and more from you. And thank you so much for having this, having me here.
It's pleasure is all mine.
[Nick Fabbri] (49:52 - 49:53)
Pleasure. Thank you, Gargi.