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Full transcript below
Tú Lê is a young lawyer, community worker, and political advocate. Tú recently came to national and international prominence, with articles recently published in The New York Times, in the wake of the Australian Labor Party’s decision to nominate the former Premier of NSW and current federal Senator Kristina Keneally for preselection in the Western Sydney electorate of Fowler, ahead of Tú as the locally preferred candidate. The backroom political decision sparked a national conversation about cultural diversity within our representative institutions, multiculturalism in Australia, the disconnect of the political class from everyday people, and cultural and socio-economic barriers to participation in civic and economic life.
In this podcast, Nick and Tú discuss:
Tú's family journey as refugees from Vietnam to Australia in the wake of the Vietnam War, her early life in Adelaide and Western Sydney, and the importance of her Buddhist faith and community
Tú’s current work as a lawyer and coordinator at the Marrickville Legal Centre, working across migration, employment, and criminal law
Tú’s experience nominating for Labor Party preselection in the electorate of Fowler, and the controversy that emerged after Labor’s national executive parachuted Senator Kristina Keneally into the seat
The importance of cultural diversity in our representative institutions, where a quarter of the population is non-white and minority groups constitute six percent of the federal parliament
“The Bamboo ceiling” in the Australian workforce and across society more generally
Australian identity, what it means to be an “Aussie”, and how we can adopt more inclusive understandings of national identity and history
The electorate of Fowler and Western Sydney more broadly, and what these communities represent and reflect about modern Australia
Some of the political issues Tú would prioritise in Parliament, including a constitutionally-entrenched “voice to Parliament” for First Nations Peoples, climate action, and reforming Australian immigration policy
Interview with Tú Lê
8 October 2021
00:00 Nick: Welcome to Bloom, a conversations podcast about anything and everything, featuring conversations with people who have led meaningful, interesting and flourishing lives.
00:09 I'm lucky to be joined today by Tú Lê, a young lawyer, community worker and political advocate. Tú recently came to national and even international prominence with articles recently published in the New York Times in the wake of the Australia Labor Party's decision to nominate the former Premier of New South Wales and current Federal Senator, Kristina Keneally, for pre-selection in the Western Sydney electorate of Fowler ahead of Tú as the locally preferred candidate.
00:36 This backroom political decision has sparked a national conversation around cultural diversity within our representative institutions, multiculturalism in Australia, the disconnect of the political class from everyday people and cultural and socioeconomic barriers to participation in civic and economic life.
00:53 So, thank you so much for joining me today, Tú. It's a real pleasure to be speaking with you.
00:58 Tú: Hi, Nick. Thank you so much for having me.
01:00 Nick: Yeah, no worries at all. It's amazing to have you on the show. I think your story has really resonated with a lot of people around Australia and I was actually speaking to a friend who is also of Vietnamese heritage who met you through AIESEC which is a student organisation in her first year of university at RMIT and she described you as “one of the most positive, genuine and caring people she's met who really cares and has so much sunshine in herself” which I thought was a really lovely comment and it's just a delight to have you on the show, and hopefully it's a nice little way to kick start your weekend having such a lovely thing said about you.
01:34 Tú: Yeah, that's really, really nice and I'm not sure I know who your friend is but that's really lovely to hear.
01:40 Nick: So, before we get into the Fowler preselection and conversations around politics, I'd love to learn a bit more about you as a person. You've spoken and written about your family's journey as refugees to Australia from Vietnam in the wake of the Vietnam War. Can you talk a bit about your family's journey to Australia and what it was like to begin and build their new lives in this country?
02:00 Tú: Sure. So, my family's journey to Australia after the Vietnam War occurred before I was born. My parents, they got married in Vietnam. They met in Saigon and they had two daughters in Vietnam so I have two older sisters and, like many Vietnamese people at the time, a few years had already passed since the end of the war and my dad knew that he couldn't continue to live and raise a family under an oppressive regime.
02:27 So, he made the decision to escape the country and now, my parents don't talk about this much but my dad thought that the journey was too dangerous for my mum and my two sisters. So, he actually escaped Vietnam on his own first and left the family behind. So, this was back in 1983 and my second sister was just born at the time.
02:49 There were a few failed attempts before he made it to the refugee camp in Malaysia and then he ended up going to Australia and not knowing a word of English. He told me that during his immigration interview he was asked about what his plans were in Australia and he told them that he wanted to study and get his qualifications in Australia. So, they sent him to Adelaide.
03:13 So, he learnt English, then he went to Adelaide University and got his bachelor’s degree in computer science and unlike a lot of people at his age, middle aged with a family, he prioritised his education rather than making a living and of course he was working there while studying as well to be able to survive, but he spent seven years in fact separated from my mum and his sisters until he was able to bring them over to Australia, and my mum tells me this story.
03:44 Sometimes she brings it up, that she was pretty disappointed to have to be separated from her husband for seven years and raise the two daughters on her own thinking that he was saving a lot of money for the family but instead, she came to Australia and had to live in someone's garage.
04:01 Nick: Oh, wow.
04:01 Tú: So, once she came to Australia and they were reunited, I was born a year after that and, at the time, my sisters were already 11 and 8 years old and I think that for them it was probably really difficult to adjust at first, especially growing up without our dad in their lives for most of their childhood in Vietnam and personally, I don't have much recollection of life in Adelaide at all.
04:26 We moved to Sydney when I was about three but my dad had to work. My mum was studying English. So, they put me in childcare from when I was one month old and honestly, I couldn't even begin to fathom how difficult it would have been to leave everything you know behind and start a new life in a new country but I know that there are many people who risk their lives and make the perilous journey to sea, never having reached land again. So, I'm just really grateful that my family was safe and reunited, even though it took so long.
05:01 Nick: Yeah, that's a really humbling, profound notion actually, isn't it? Were your family able to join an established Vietnamese community when they first arrived in Sydney and Adelaide for that matter?
05:13 Tú: Well, when we first moved to Sydney, we were living with family friends. So, we had known people here and at that point in time - so this was early nineties - there was already a growing Vietnamese community. So, yeah, there was some support.
05:28 Nick: Yeah, wonderful and I'm curious as to what are some of the fondest memories you have growing up in that community as a child? I think everyone has really, looking back as you get a bit older, thinking back about your beautiful almost sacred childhood memories and impressions we have, a more narrow kind of understanding of the world at that time but, yeah, I'm curious as to what some of those memories are and the biggest influences that your parents, family and community had on you?
05:57 Tú: So, I feel really, really lucky that I grew up in a very loving and supportive environment and of course my parents, they had to work very hard and, you know, we weren't rich or very well connected but I didn't really know any better and I remember growing up, feeling that I was quite privileged. You know, I had a roof over my head, I had an amazing lot of sisters that I really looked up to and I didn't ask for much, but I actually felt that I had everything I thought I needed and that's especially when I compared myself to kids back in Vietnam like my cousins or even the kids I saw on World Vision or Smith Family.
06:36 I guess within my family, there was a really big emphasis about maintaining our culture and our traditions and a big part of that was or is language. So, my parents made me go to Vietnamese school from a very young age. I didn't quite mind it but I remember thinking, oh, why do I have to go to school five days a week and learn everything in English, then on Saturday go to Vietnamese school and learn Vietnamese?
07:01 I remember a lot of the times, having to miss out on a lot of friends birthday parties because of Vietnamese school. So, yeah, that was something I didn't quite enjoy but I actually learnt Vietnamese throughout high school as well and in fact I did Vietnamese continuous as a subject for my HSC which is the higher school certificate and I was one out of two students in that course that were Australian-born Vietnamese. Everyone else was an overseas student so I found it really difficult.
07:33 I also grew up in the Vietnamese Buddhist community and I think that really shaped who I am today. The Vietnamese Buddhist community, they're like my second family. It was such a great environment to grow up in. We didn't just learn about Buddhism. We learnt how to put Buddhist teachings into practice. We were really connected to the community and to nature. I learnt a lot about the world around me, about humanity, how to engage with people of all ages, how to be a good citizen. We did a lot of camping, a lot of volunteer work in the community. I just have so many fond memories and great experiences growing up. When I became an adult, I had to go through the training courses but then I then became a leader within the organisation and I still today volunteer as a youth leader.
08:27 Nick: Yeah, that's fascinating and I suppose you can draw a pretty straight line from your experiences living and working with the community and being involved in that faith and social justice work to your current work as a lawyer and coordinator at the Marrickville Legal Centre. So, could you talk a bit about your journey to law school and the legal profession and also what sort of work you do on a day-to-day basis in the areas of law you practice in currently?
08:51 Tú: Sure. So, when I finished high school I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to pursue as a career. I knew what I didn't want to do and I definitely didn't want to become a doctor or an accountant or anything like that.
09:02 Nick: You don't like blood, no.
09:04 Tú: Yeah, exactly and I actually didn't want to be a lawyer either but I knew that the law, it encroaches on almost every aspect of society and I knew that knowledge of the law was going to be useful regardless of the career choice that I made.
09:21 So, I actually studied commerce and law, initially as I mentioned with no intention of ever becoming a practitioner and I think a lot of people who study law don't necessarily get admitted or practice law.
09:34 I was always told throughout my law degree that there was generally two types of people who become lawyers, those who want to make a lot of money and those who want to help people like social justice warriors. So, I was definitely one of those law students leaning more to the second category.
09:51 After graduating from my double degree, my first ever full time role was actually for a global logistics company. So, I got a business graduate position with DHL Supply Chain and I'll tell you a funny story.
10:05 So, I think there were about seven graduates that year including me and, on our first day, we were introduced to the CEO and the directors of the company. So, we came into this huge boardroom and all these middle aged white men were sitting around the table but one woman and she turned out to be the secretary there to take minutes.
10:26 So, we were all introducing ourselves and we were asked where do you see yourself in the future in this company and I said, "I see myself sitting at this table," and I didn't mean as a secretary but I eventually just left the company after I finished my two year grad program so I wasn't there for long. So, that never actually eventuated but I don't think that stopped my ambition to have a seat at the table.
10:53 So, after my grad role I did my PLT which is a Practical Legal Training with an organisation called RACS (Refugee Advice Casework Service) and also had the opportunity to work at the Asylum Seeker Centre in refugee law and I really loved...
11:07 Nick: Incredible.
11:08 Tú: Yeah, I loved working in the community legal sector but at that time there were a lot of funding cuts to the sector and there were no positions available for new lawyers. So, I had to move and I went and worked in corporate migration. So, I worked for a corporate migration firm.
11:29 This was a really great experience. I had an opportunity to work with some global partners. I learnt a lot from the incredible managers I had there but I knew that if I had stayed there, I wasn't going to be fulfilled in the long term.
11:45 At that time, outside of work I was doing all these things in the community that I was passionate about but I really had this very narrow view that I had to pursue and build a career which was separate to my passion for community and grassroots organising and things that I did on a voluntary basis in my spare time.
12:03 I got then to a point where I thought if I continued with this law firm, of course I'd be able to progress my career but I had to really ask myself is that what I really wanted in five years’ time? I looked at all my senior managers who were all wonderful people but none of them seemed to really love their jobs the way that I wanted to love my job. I wanted to jump out of bed every day, super excited to go to work and I just wasn't getting that feeling from that role.
12:33 I knew that individual casework, it just wasn't what I wanted to do forever and at that time, I was actually serving as a general secretary of the Vietnamese Community in Australia and that's where I met Chris Hayes. He's the current member for Fowler, and he was very close to the Vietnamese community. He came to all our events. He supported all our initiatives and I got talking to him and getting to know him and he knew I worked in immigration law. So, he actually offered me a job in his office because he knew that I was looking for different opportunities and he knew, because I worked in immigration law and because as a federal MP he dealt with a lot of immigration matters, he offered me an opportunity to come and work for him.
13:16 So, long story short, I started to work for Chris. I then went on to manage his election campaign at the last election but knew too that this wasn't what I wanted to do long term.
13:28 I then found my way back into the community legal sector. At that time, my main role was to coordinate a state wide service assisting exploited migrant workers but, at the moment, I work both at Marrickville Legal Centre and also at Western Sydney Community Legal Centre as a solicitor in developing a new service called the Domestic Violence Response pilot program.
13:56 So, it's a service that is focused on assisting men from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds who have been affected by domestic violence, whether that's as a victim or as a perpetrator. So, it's really interesting work. I really enjoy it.
14:16 In terms of what I see on a day-to-day basis and the work that I do, it's very broad for DV - not necessarily DV matters but the clients that we see, we assist them with anything from divorce matters to AVO breaches, minor criminal offences. So, it is really quite broad work.
14:40 I think what I mentioned, I never really intended to be a lawyer but what I really think is important is being able to access justice and I think that it's such a big issue where a lot of people and a lot of vulnerable people within our communities aren't able to access the legal system and whether that's because of the cost or the perceived cost or even not knowing that there are a lot of mainstream services that can assist like Legal Aid or the Community Legal Sector. So, I think that's really important and what I try to do every day in my work is really break down that barrier to access.
15:21 Nick: So, a couple of points that really stand out for me in those reflections is that firstly you've been able to find, in the day-to-day work you do with the casework working in the Community Legal Centre, that kind of fulfilling sense of meaning and purpose and impact that you're able to have in the community through working across the whole range of matters you are now in terms of the criminal work, the domestic violence space, migration and economic issues as well.
15:48 Secondly, you're able to have more of an impact at a systems level by way of your reference to designing that legal system or support service for migrants who have been exploited in their workplaces.
16:00 I mention all that because I see it as being foundational to the work in politics and policy that you've had as well, working with Chris Hayes as the member for Fowler, with an intention really to drive that macro or systems level reform and change to the system and to Australian society, all from a place which seems to me to be rooted quite deeply in your upbringing and your sense of social responsibility and faith communities and also just your lived experience.
16:31 So, I guess that seems like a pretty neat segue to the whole question about the Fowler pre-selection and your whole experience of trying to enter that political world to make those kinds of changes. So, could you outline for our listeners what actually happened in that Fowler pre-selection process? Because it seemed as though on the bare facts you had the endorsement or the backing of the sitting member, Chris Hayes member for Fowler, and also the kind of support or endorsement of the local rank and file members within the Labor branches in Fowler, but then there was this sort of overriding presence of the national executive of the Labor party and a decision from on top or within the factions to install Kristina Keneally as another candidate.
17:20 I think it's quite bemusing to a lot of people outside the political and media world who don't understand how the political machinery of pre-selections works and it can seem like an extremely traumatising and difficult thing to have happened to you but also the electorate in the sense that its wishes were overridden, basically and, yeah, it obviously prompted a lot of outpouring of support and emotion.
17:41 Tú: Yeah. So, I mean, I guess if we speak about this issue I'd have to go back to March this year and that's when Chris Hayes, the current member for Fowler, had announced his retirement and, in doing so, he also announced that he was supporting me as the pre-selected candidate for the federal seat of Fowler which is a very unusual thing to do and it doesn’t mean that I was going to get it or that he was able to anoint me. It doesn’t quite work that way and Fowler just happens to be a very large or have a very large Vietnamese population.
18:24 Yes, I am Vietnamese. That doesn't necessarily mean that I would automatically get the Vietnamese vote but that had occurred back in March and that was made quite public.
18:36 Frankly, I have only ever expressed my intention to run for Labor pre-selection for the seat of Fowler. I knew that it wasn't going to be a free ticket to Parliament. I was hoping that it would be a rank and file pre-selection process. I think that local members would appreciate that, but there are rules within the party that I guess would allow for what people say, you know, other candidates being parachuted in.
19:12 So, that had occurred - I forget whether it's three or four weeks ago now - but a couple of weeks ago. That's when I found out from the media - that's how I heard, like everybody else.
19:24 Nick: Really? Wow. Oh my gosh.
19:26 Tú: Yeah, and that's when I found that, that Senator Keneally was what - you know, as I said - was to be parachuted in as a Labor candidate for the seat of Fowler. So, this is very much an internal factional party matter.
19:44 Unfortunately, even though there's been a lot of coverage of it and a lot of public commentary, the public opinion has pretty little to no bearing on internal party decisions and this issue, this actually happens on both sides of politics. You know, I know recently we've been reminded of how our very own Prime Minister won his seat of Cook.
20:09 Nick: By getting the party executive to roll the preferred local candidate, Michael Towke.
20:13 Tú: Yeah, exactly.
20:14 Nick: So, when you say factional machinations, that's essentially the party executive of either Liberals or Labor or the Greens intervening and putting in their preferred person for pre-selection rather than someone who is locally endorsed.
20:27 Tú: Yeah. I think more or less, that is the case.
20:29 Nick: Wow.
20:29 Tú: So, it's nothing new. Unfortunately on this occasion, a very internal party matter became very public and I think that ultimately it was an expedite solution to a problem that the Labor Party had in the Senate, because both Senator Keneally and Senator O'Neill wanted to be number one on the Senate ticket.
20:53 So, you know, a factional deal was done and that was that. You know, I'm a member of the right faction of the party too - you know, the same faction - and for some reason, I wasn't invited. I didn't get notification of the particular meeting where Senator Keneally was in fact endorsed as a Labor candidate for Fowler but there was absolutely no chance for me to run against Senator Keneally. It was stacked against me and of course...
21:20 Nick: So, you're not going to run, is that right, no?
21:23 Tú: Well, not as the - well, I definitely don't have an opportunity. She's now endorsed as the candidate for Fowler.
21:28 Nick: Oh, I see. She is, okay. Sorry.
21:30 Tú: Yeah, and of course I was disappointed in the outcome because that meant that I didn't even get an opportunity to run for pre-selection, but no one else did either.
21:41 Nick: So, in the wake of that pre-selection decision you published a really moving post on LinkedIn and Facebook, more of a cri de coeur or cry from the heart which went absolutely viral and it was largely about the need for authentic representation in politics, the importance of cultural diversity and your unique perspectives as a Vietnamese-Australian woman from Western Sydney, and how this all fits within the broader notions of Australian identity.
22:04 The post prompted an outpouring of supportive comments from people of culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds in Australia, many of whom don't normally engage in or comment on politics. What exactly did you say in your post and why do you think it resonated so profoundly across the country?
22:20 Tú: Yeah. Well, funnily enough I've used social media more in the last month than I have in my whole life and it's pretty exhausting but...
22:30 Nick: You’re good at it, yeah.
22:31 Tú: Oh, thank you. It was a pretty long post, I think generally about my reflections on my experiences and particularly as a minority Australian who is not of the political class but I guess who had the audacity to even throw my hat in the ring and have a crack at becoming a Parliamentarian.
22:56 So, it was never about using this opportunity as a stepping stone for higher office or anything like that. I really just saw it as an opportunity to serve my community and an opportunity made possible because of the support of the outgoing member and I knew, without his support, I probably would never have had this opportunity.
23:18 The events of the past few weeks, it all happened really quickly. I had to react very quickly. You know, I didn't have the luxury of time to think things through or clearly and I just really spoke from the heart and honestly, I didn't even realise I had so much to say. You know, I would think that anyone in my position would have probably done the same thing and people are quite surprised that I didn't stay quiet or let this just go away.
23:46 Nick: Yeah, exactly.
23:48 I just did what I thought was the right thing to do and I was also bombarded by the media. So, I felt like I had little choice but to speak out about it, but I know a lot of people were very interested and even that first week, I just woke up with all these thoughts in my mind and just had to get it down. You know, I never even thought of myself as a writer but I just had so much to say, like I said.
24:13 I think that a lot of people may have resonated with what I had to say because it is a very common experience. It's a common experience for minority Australians. It's a common experience for women, young people, people from culturally diverse backgrounds. You know, to be sidelined and to be underestimated and having to work twice as hard to prove ourselves or even to be seen and heard, and I think this spans across institutions and industries and workplaces.
24:46 I think ultimately, you know, we are a multicultural country but I'm sure that anyone who is from a minority community like me has experienced discrimination at some point in their lives because of who they are, you know, where they live and their background.
25:02 Nick: Beautifully expressed and I think that's exactly what it did. It articulated or it gave voice to a common experience which is so widespread amongst all of Australian society, particularly for minority groups as you say but which is largely endured in silence and so rarely I think do we have such an articulate kind of example of people speaking up and calling it out, which is why I found the responses you have posted to be so moving as well because it was evidence that it had empowered others to take a stand too.
25:36 One of the biggest national reckoning moments to come from this has been about cultural diversity within our representative institutions like Parliament. Very few of the 227 members of the House of Reps and the Senate are of Asian or South Asian backgrounds, while 14.4% of the Australian population has Asian ancestry. Additionally, while about a quarter of the population of Australia is non-white, members of minority groups only make up about 6% of the federal parliament. Why is this the case and what is the impact on culturally and linguistically diverse communities as a result of not having adequate representation in our systems of government?
26:13 Tú: I think that this has a lot to do with power and privilege and people who hold power being unwilling to give up or even share their power. As a nation, I think we've only abolished the White Australia Policy in the last 50 odd years or so. So, there are people alive today who have lived through and were subject to very racist laws in this country and that's just a fact.
26:46 I think that we've obviously come a long way. We've made a lot of progress, particularly in terms of gender diversity and I feel very proud for example of Labor's affirmative action policy, but Australia is - you know, we're becoming an increasingly culturally diverse nation and over 20% of us have non-European cultural backgrounds.
27:11 So, I think it's pretty dismaying that only about 6% of the federal parliament are non-Anglo and that's especially when you look at how far ahead the comparable countries like the UK, Canada and New Zealand are compared to us. You know, even the Conservative party in the UK have championed diversity. You know, what does that say about us? So, I think that, yeah, as I said...
27:37 Nick: Within cabinet as well. It's not just parliament, it's also actually within cabinet and the highest levels of government too, you know, and here you don't have that reflection necessarily of the population in its representative institutions.
27:52 Tú: Yeah, I agree and, as a representative of democracy, that's what you would expect for our parliament, to be representative of the communities but unfortunately that's not the case. Yet.
28:04 Nick: Yeah, indeed. So, your comments about the lack of cultural diversity within the Labor party and Parliament especially attracted significant support from Labor figures such as Dr Anne Aly, an MP from Western Australia of Egyptian heritage, who had a memorable line that “politics can't just be a trope that Labor pulls out and parades while wearing a Sari and eating some kung pow chicken to make ourselves look good.”
28:28 The Health Services Union also recently quit the ALP right faction to protest Keneally’s nomination. Do you sense that things will change as a result of your experience and your outspokenness to shine a light on these issues?
28:39 Tú: I sure hope so. I think change in politics is never inevitable. I think it takes strong and gutsy leadership and it takes pressure from both outside and from within parties and I believe that, you know, meaningful, sustainable change, it takes time and it takes organisation.
29:02 Obviously this isn't going to change overnight and, even if I feel what happened in Fowler is a complete missed opportunity, I'm actually really glad that the broader issue of diversity and representation is being discussed and being discussed in a very public way and that more people who weren't necessarily interested in politics are now paying attention to this.
29:28 So, I think it's a great thing and I hope that it means that parties will take it seriously and make it a priority, and I think that if it takes me having to miss out on this opportunity on this occasion with Fowler but it means that five, ten other candidates from diverse backgrounds and pre-selected and pre-selected for winnable seats, then I see that as a win for all of us.
29:54 Nick: That's such a wonderfully mature and gracious and generous response and I really do hope and in fact I believe that, yeah, you will one day get that opportunity to serve in Parliament, whether it's state or federal and to represent and work for your community.
30:08 Just coming back to my friend Cathy who had those really lovely remarks about you at the start of the conversation, she was saying to me that the worrying thing about the situation that unfolded in Fowler is that a lot of people from minority or culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds in Australia simply tune out of the political process because they see it as something that's simply not open to them. You know, they're not taken seriously or given a fair go and they go and make change in other avenues, be it through working in their professions or in the social purpose space across the community or any other myriad of ways but politics, which has one of the biggest kind of levers to make really big changes across society and positive ones, wouldn't be a particularly fruitful endeavour. To me, that's what is at stake here, it’s this tragedy of losing entire generations of people all across society and that's a tragedy for our civic culture, I think.
31:09 Tú: Yeah. It would be and I think that our leaders can inspire a generation with their words but they can also easily squash our aspirations. So, it's really important that they're mindful of that, about what they say and what they do, because it has very deep ramifications, but I really do hope that this doesn't discourage anyone. It certainly doesn't discourage me. So, I think that we should use this as a motivation and, yes, we have to work harder. We have to push, we have to put more pressure, we have to do a lot more maybe than others who are more privileged, but that doesn't mean that we should give up and I think that it takes all of us to really fight this.
32:02 You know, for a lot of minorities and for people like me who grew up in Western Sydney, we fight every day. So, it's nothing out of the ordinary, it's nothing new. You know, we're constantly fighting every day of our lives. So, I think we really need to continue that but do it together.
32:21 Nick: Just to round out this point of discussion, it's not just politics and our representative institutions which struggle to make space for people of culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds. The phrase 'Bamboo Ceiling' is used to refer to a multitude of factors which prevent the rise of Asian Australians to the top of the professional world. According to the Human Rights Commission’s report last year, less than 5% of Australians of Asian heritage make it to senior executive levels. Only 1.6% become CEOs. Could you talk a bit about the systemic factors and issues within Australia that cause this and maybe include some stories from your community and peer group which illustrate what the reality of the situation is like?
33:04 Tú: Yeah, absolutely and unfortunately I think it's not always deliberate either. I think a lot of unconscious bias has led to many incredibly passionate and talented people across all industries to miss out on advancing their careers or getting a promotion, because they often get overlooked and passed up.
33:28 So, I think even if companies have a diversity and inclusion policy or principles within their firms, when diverse voices aren't being heard and we're not part of that process, then the decision making can often be impaired.
33:46 I've actually experienced this in the workplace before and it's nothing new. This is not the first time that I've been underestimated or sidelined. I was actually forced to apply for a role that I was already performing. I was already in the job but I was made to reapply for it and go through the application process again up against one of my managers who I was at that time already reporting into. So, they were senior than me and that person was obviously older than I was, had about 10 years of experience working in the industry and was a little bit whiter than me. I remember just thinking to myself, you know, how the heck was I going to get this role over her? It was pretty demoralising.
34:35 Nick: Yeah, for sure and, in your recent social media post I mentioned earlier, you dedicated it “to everyone who doesn't always feel like a true blue fair dinkum Aussie” and reflected on the challenges people from minority communities have in feeling a part of Australian culture and identity. So, what does Australia and Australian-ness mean to you and can you talk a bit about how culturally and linguistically diverse communities or minority communities often feel excluded from what is perceived to be a mainstream identity?
35:04 Tú: So, my views of being an Australian has definitely evolved over the years. I absolutely love being an Australian and, you know, not just any Australian but one with Vietnamese heritage and I think that's taken me some time to really come to terms with, but I really do love living in Australia and calling Australia home and I think that I've been pretty fortunate in my life that I've been able to do a bit of traveling and I've got to say that there is no other place like Australia. You know, our diversity, our sense of mateship, our values of fairness, democracy, the rule of law, these things should never be taken for granted.
35:46 While we obviously still have a long way to go and, you know, we celebrate our diversity and multiculturalism but I think what's really important is that we also need to reflect on the things that we need to improve on to be a fairer and to be a more cohesive and inclusive society, and I think that really comes down to addressing our history, particularly our history of colonisation and the devastation that's brought onto our First Nations people and in a very truthful and open way.
36:22 I don't think we're good at that just yet as a country but I think that, as a nation, we need to not only acknowledge but take positive steps to rectify our past deeds so that we can heal and flourish as a country together.
36:40 Nick: Have you heard of the artist, Peter Drew? He did these sort of posters which are all over Melbourne and I've seen a couple in Sydney actually since moving here but they're called Monga Khan Aussie posters and these posters are beautiful portrait shots, but the original one is a photograph of Monga Khan which was taken 100 years ago in Australia when he was one of thousands of people applying for exemptions to the White Australia Policy and he worked to sell goods in Victoria, but there are photos of Vietnamese migrants, other migrants, First Nations people, cameleers from the Middle East and all the posters have this big test saying 'Aussie' in capital letters at the bottom of it, and it's a really cool idea of a way of kind of getting you to think about our sense of who is an Aussie and what Australia and Australian-ness is, is actually so much more expansive and inclusive than like the kind of narrow conception that we have, you know, through that southern cross tattoo kind of stereotype.
37:39 Tú: Yeah. I haven't heard of the artist and those illustrations but I absolutely love that and I have to say, I do have a few friends that have southern cross tattoos and so, you know, nothing on them. They're great people and I love them but, you're right, I think the idea of what it means to be an Australian is changing and that's only a good thing and it should be - it shouldn't just be, you know, the white Australian that people often think about.
38:11 Sometimes when I used to travel abroad before the pandemic and I said I'm Australian, people would be confused. They've be like, "You're not white, you don't have blond hair and blue eyes." I think that's changing as well in terms of what it means to be an Australian and I think we really need to embrace that.
38:29 I wrote recently a post about being a hyphenated Australian and how that's actually my superpower. So, I think that as minority...
38:37 Nick: You're Vietnamese-Australian you mean by that or...?
38:39 Tú: Yeah, so being a - or whatever it is. As an Australian, you can be Vietnamese-Australian, you can be anything Australian, right, but that only adds to your character, to who you are and your identity and I think that the more hyphens you have, the better, and that should be celebrated and you should definitely not feel like you're any less Australian because of that.
39:03 Nick: Yep. So, just coming to the end of the conversation today but if we can zoom in on your community and Western Sydney generally which, as you said, you've observed for your whole life, had hoped to in Parliament and may one day still do but, in a more poetic sense, could you sort of talk about what Fowler and its people represent as a reflection of that modern Australia? You know, because I think a lot of the time it’s depicted glancingly in the media and not really given that sort of voice and authentic understanding as a wonderful community in and of itself.
39:43 Tú: Yeah. Yeah, right and I think that Fowler is arguably one of the most diverse electorates in Australia. It's an absolute melting pot of cultures and I absolutely love it and I feel very fortunate to have grown up in such a diverse and multicultural region of Australia and I was exposed to many different cultures from a very young age and also had a very strong sense of belonging.
40:09 So, I grew up in my community but also had that exposure and I think statistically, Fowler is quite a socioeconomically disadvantaged area. You know, it’s home to many newly arrived migrants and refugee families, many of whom escaped their war-torn homeland but it's also very rich in culture and community and I think that the people of Fowler are extremely resilient and also very compassionate.
40:41 We come together in tough times such as during a pandemic to help each other out and, despite a lot of the negative media coverage about western and south western Sydney in general, I've seen how the people of our community have ensured that no one is left behind or that they fall through the cracks and a lot of community groups and organisations, you know, civil society has really had to step up to fill this void that had been left behind because of very out of touch and unfortunately tone deaf policies that our leaders have imposed on us, particularly during Covid.
41:24 Nick: Yeah, for sure. Those LGA restrictions in Western Sydney were pretty extreme. So, to wrap up the interview, being part of politics is about the future as much as it is about the present. What are some of the biggest political issues you'd like to work on in parliament, both for Australia and for the people of Fowler?
41:43 Tú: Oh, so many. I wouldn't even know where to start. I guess if I had to really narrow it down, I think the first thing would be to commit to the Uluru Statement from the Heart. I think that it's critical - absolutely vital - for us to recognise First Australians have a voice to parliament and I think that's the least that we could do and I think that we could do a better job of connecting migrant communities with that too.
42:12 I feel like there is a sense of, you know, we don't have the right to have a say in this because we are newly arrived or guests in this country and it takes a long time to feel that or develop that sense of belonging and feel that this is our home too and that, you know, we should have a say in things like this and have a voice to stand in solidarity with our First Nations community.
42:38 So, I think that's probably where I'd start and another thing that I feel quite strongly about is our current immigration policy and I often reflect on this. I think that if the Vietnam War were to occur in this century and this decade, I would never be born in Australia. I'd probably be born on an offshore detention somewhere and would probably never have the opportunities that I have had growing up in this country.
43:10 I know and my parents and my community remind all the time. We have this saying in Vietnamese. It says 'uống nước nhớ nguồn' which literally means you always remember the source of where you drink water from and so there's this huge sense of gratitude to Australia for giving us a second chance at life, and that's constantly drilled into me.
43:32 So, I know very well that, you know, we are so lucky and that at the time, you know, the Australian government then was very welcoming of refugees and welcomed us with open arms in the early eighties and so, but that's not necessarily the case now and that's something that really saddens me.
43:51 I mean, another thing would be climate action policy too. You know, if we're always talking about how we can protect our future, that starts with protecting our environment as well. Yeah, there are so many others that I can list but do you have another couple of hours to?
44:07 Nick: Thank you so much for your time today, Tú, and for speaking with me at length. You are an incredible human being and just this conversation for me has really solidified the impression that I think I had through a lot of commentary you had in the media and some of those Facebook and LinkedIn posts and, yeah, I really can't wait to see the things you go on to do in your career, in your life as well, and hopefully those contributions you'll make to Australia. I think it's really amazing what you've been able to communicate in this conversation about your own personal experience and kind of the grace and dignity and generosity of spirit with which you've been able to talk about your experiences but also situated within a much broader context which resonates with a lot of other people around the country and finally, as you said in the chat today, hopefully this does sort of force political parties to have some real deliberations and thinking about how they can adequately represent their communities and make sure that all corners of Australian society are being included in political processes. So, thanks again for joining me and have a lovely weekend.
45:14 Tú: Thanks, Nick. It's my absolute pleasure.