Originally published on the Oxford Policy Podcast.
In this episode, Nick Fabbri speaks with Grace Fox, a student of the Master of Public Policy at Oxford University, about her personal story, the history of the Native American Seminole Nation, her family, identity, and belonging. Grace also reflects on her work with the US Department of the Interior in the Bureau of Indian Education in Native American policy, and her wider work in education, equity, and social justice, and what her hopes for the future are in her life and career.
***
Grace is from Edmond, Oklahoma, and an enrolled member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. She recently graduated from Columbia University with a Bachelor's Degree in Psychology and Ethnicity and Race Studies (Indigenous Studies). Through non-profit management, policy creation, and community-centered organising, Grace plans to work directly with Native American communities worldwide as an aspiring education activist.
Grace has worked for the U.S. Department of the Interior in the Bureau of Indian Education as a recipient of the esteemed 2023 Udall Congressional Internship Program. Grace is excited to continue her education in Oxford and proudly work towards creating a better future for the generations to come, ensuring the success and well-being of her future ancestors.
Grace is an Eisenhower Scholar.
Transcript below ^_^
[Nick Fabbri] (0:00 - 0:53)
Welcome back dear friends and policy lovers to another episode of the Oxford Policy Podcast, the first of 2024, and I hope all of your new years have started wonderfully. My name is Nick Fabbri and I'm delighted to be joined today by Grace Fox, who is a current Master of Public Policy student here at the Blavatnik School of Government within the University of Oxford. Grace is from Oklahoma in the United States and is a member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, a Native American tribe.
Grace has a background in psychology and Indigenous studies and a diverse and impressive set of experiences across non-profit management, policy creation, and community-centered organizing. In today's conversation, we're hoping to learn more about Grace as a person, to understand her unique story and background, and the drivers that inform her work in Native American policy, education, equity, and social justice. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Grace.
[Grace Fox] (0:53 - 0:57)
Thank you so much, Nick, for having me. I'm delighted to be here, truly.
[Nick Fabbri] (0:57 - 1:02)
Wonderful, and before we dive into the interview, how was your winter vacation? Did you get back to the States to see your fam?
[Grace Fox] (1:03 - 1:18)
I did, I did, and it was fantastic. I truly needed the time and rest and relaxation with my family, and I did get to do a little bit of traveling beforehand, though. I did a Birmingham moment, I did a Glasgow and Edinburgh and London moment, which was pretty cool for me.
[Nick Fabbri] (1:18 - 1:22)
Stunning. Now back to wonderful, grey and gloomy England.
[Grace Fox] (1:22 - 1:23)
Grey and gloomy Oxford, right?
[Nick Fabbri] (1:24 - 1:34)
And so for our listeners who aren't as familiar with your background, could you tell us a bit about your story, how you came here to be here today, sitting in a podcast studio in Oxford, talking to an Australian?
[Grace Fox] (1:35 - 5:15)
Right, well, hello everybody. It's nice to be here with you guys. I'm Grace Fox, as Nick introduced me already, but I am from Edmond, Oklahoma, and I'm a member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, which is, as he said, an indigenous nation there.
I was born and raised in Oklahoma, lived my whole life there with my family, and my mom, dad, brother, and I've had a couple dogs throughout my lifetime. Currently, they are Hotch and Watson, which are the joys of my life. I grew up a relatively normal upbringing, suburban, and just pretty much live in my life as a normal kid.
My parents did so much and gave me and my brother the absolute best life they could ever give us, and I will forever be thankful for them, and they'll come up a few times in my story of just them being the foundations of why I'm able to be here and be at Oxford and have the education that I do today. And I went to high school in Oklahoma, graduated, and I really wanted to go into college studying psychology and viola performance. I am an avid musician.
I've loved orchestral performance for many, many years of my life, but I didn't really know what exactly I wanted to do. I've always been fascinated and delighted by social justice and activism. I found my roots in that during a movement for education and for funding for public education in Oklahoma during 2017, 2018, which was a big problem and continues to be a big problem in the states, as some of the other people who have been on this podcast have probably said.
I graduated, and I was lucky enough to receive valedictorianship, which was fantastic, but I also had worked my whole life. I never knew if I was going to make it out of Oklahoma, but that was my dream. It really was.
And my parents and my brother and my family at large always encouraged me to go bigger and strive for my dreams. And so I did, and I knew I couldn't afford it. I come from not the most wealthy family, and I was lucky enough to apply for and work really hard and receive ultimately the Bill and Melinda Gates scholarship.
So it is because of that program that I was able to go to Columbia University. After receiving a likely letter and my admittance, and ultimately attend majoring in psychology and ethnicity and race studies for Native American and indigenous studies. I completed my tenure at Columbia with cum laude, and I finished up with departmental honors in both majors, which I'm very, very proud of.
And there I was able to make a community and a friendship and a cohort of people that I will always, always treasure near and dear to my heart. And it's some of them as well who pushed me to apply to Oxford and pushed me to go to the Blavatnik School of Government and really encouraged me to follow my dreams, even though for me at the time, I didn't believe they were possible, but they never stopped believing in me. They believed in me when I didn't believe in myself.
And ultimately it is the love and the care and the push of my family and friends and community that has allowed me to be here and create a new community with all of you guys here at Oxford. And it is something that I treasure greatly. I have, you know, as we'll talk about later on, I've worked in Native American policy and education policy primarily, but I've done other work in technology and in health fields as well.
And so I've been so honored at Oxford to meet everybody and continue on with my journey here. So thank you for having me, and I'm so excited to talk about my journey.
[Nick Fabbri] (5:16 - 5:31)
Wonderful. It's obviously a very American thing, I think, for people at the end of high school to move into state. It's very, very different in Australia.
We tend to sort of go to universities in our home cities, but I can imagine going from Oklahoma in the South, sort of just North or East of Texas, maybe.
[Grace Fox] (5:32 - 5:33)
Right.
[Nick Fabbri] (5:33 - 5:35)
Just North, right. Hence the accent, the Southern.
[Grace Fox] (5:36 - 5:38)
There you go. Yes, of course, the accent.
[Nick Fabbri] (5:38 - 5:54)
Yeah, which is, yeah, we love. And so what are some of the happiest memories from Columbia University in living in New York City? You were involved in a wide range of extracurricular activities there.
And obviously I imagine it's sort of like almost stepping through the door into Narnia, right, into New York, a completely different world.
[Grace Fox] (5:54 - 9:18)
So, so different. Yeah, no. So I'm actually the first person in my family to leave the state for school.
In Oklahoma, just like Australia, probably it's not common for people to leave really the community, leave, you know, Oklahoma. The two most popular schools are Oklahoma State University and University of Oklahoma. Right.
And pretty much it's a pipeline. Like as a child, you have this funnel that just pushes you from elementary, middle, high school, and then you're off to one of those two or, you know, one of the smaller schools in Oklahoma. But it is really rare to have people leave the state.
And so for me to tell my parents as a freshman in high school and tell them I fell in love with New York, that is my dream. I want to go and having them support me and tell me, yeah, I can do it. And if I can find a way to pay for it and I can find a way to get in, then the world is my oyster and my dreams are endless.
And so I was, I was fortunate enough to have that upbringing. And ultimately that led me to going to Columbia, but of course, coming from a background that, you know, I did not meet a lot of people at Columbia from with, with a similar background from me. You had people from the American South.
Yes. But I was one of maybe two or three people from Oklahoma. And then I was one of two Native American people from Oklahoma.
And so getting to experience, you know, a whole different life force, right? I come from rural, I come from a very red state. I come from, you know, a place where in high school, I would always say, I'm bored.
I want more with my life. And going to Columbia felt like a, a new magical world opened up, right? Like I got to experience people I had never seen and, and cultures and languages and, you know, foods and things as simple as slang just really changed my outlook on life.
And my, some of my happiest moments are from Columbia and from New York city. I think that the reason I ultimately went up with Columbia was because my dream was New York and I wanted to live that big city life for a little bit in my life. And I didn't know when else I would have the chance to do it.
And so I would say some of my favorite memories from Columbia are the friends that I made. I went through a really, really rough last couple of years of high school, including, you know, my parents getting divorced and me being intensely, intensely bullied and having mental health crises and them really exacerbating my, a self image for myself that I was not proud of and a life that I was sad to live in. And so getting to go to Columbia and make a whole new group of friends who loved me and wanted me and cared for me deeply and made me feel included and needed and valued above everything else was something that is truly foundational to my memories, my memory building at Columbia.
I couldn't have done it without them. I wouldn't have done it without them and surviving a pandemic. Right.
Um, I, you know, my freshman year of, of college was in 2019. And right. So six months later, throughout my freshman year, we get hit with a pandemic and that's definitely not the college experience I had dreamed of.
Right. I finally made it out of Oklahoma, um, or how I felt at the time just to make it to my dream, have only to have it ripped away. And I think there comes a lot of trauma with that.
[Nick Fabbri] (9:18 - 9:21)
We locked down in New York. Did you have to go back home?
[Grace Fox] (9:21 - 11:33)
No. So funny story, but one of the best memories that I guess I'll touch on real quick that involves that is the first week of the pandemic, right? It's the first week of March and we had our first case in New York.
And at that point, we didn't really know what was going on. We had seen stuff going down in Europe, but we didn't know how bad is this going to be? Is this going to be, you know, what everybody said two weeks, and then we'll be back, you know, back in school, back in the classroom, or could this be something worse?
And one of my dear friends, Devin, um, he's now a paralegal in, in Paris. And one of my closest and dearest friends who has continued throughout the years, he was the first person I actually met at Columbia. Um, he got a whole bunch, our whole friend group who were all scared and many of us not from New York.
He put us in a car and he took us in most generously offered a week at his house in the Hamptons to spend with him and stay with him in a safe area where we felt if they locked down the city, we will be at least out of the major city and be able to most likely find a way out as opposed to being locked down in Manhattan. Right. And so ground zero, right, we had no idea what was going on.
And so some of my best memories are actually spent in the Hamptons with just a group of, you know, 10 people living in a house, you know, watching the world end, but we had each other. And we got to experience, you know, the beginning of the pandemic together, which we didn't know at the time was kind of a, you know, a goodbye for a while. Because that was the last real substantial time we had left.
And so right after that, you know, I went back to the city and they told us that we could, you know, go to spring break as usual. 24 hours after I had landed on a spring break trip, after they had reassured us, Columbia had reassured us that this was fine. It's going to be solved in two weeks.
Just take an extra long spring break. The moment I arrive in Colorado, which I had previously lived in with my family, 24 hours later, we get an email from the president of Columbia saying, you have 24 hours to get your stuff out of your dorm. Like we are shutting down the university, you need to come get your stuff and leave.
So in, you know, less than a week, I, my, my mom had been in five states. I had been in, you know, coast to coast, crazy situation, right?
[Nick Fabbri] (11:33 - 11:35)
But not conducive to studying, I imagine, right?
[Grace Fox] (11:36 - 12:20)
Well, not conducive to studying. And so ultimately, we all moved back into my house at the time back in Oklahoma. And that is where I spent the majority of the pandemic.
I got to spend some time, you know, with some friends back home and really just kind of develop my college life in Oklahoma, in an office or in my bedroom, which was not what I had expected, but something that has taught me resilience. And, you know, although it was a really traumatizing time and I still look back with a lot of sadness and, you know, a feeling of being missing out, there was a lot of good, happy moments of testing friendship and seeing how having movie nights and, and game nights and really being involved with each other, which showed the strength of friendship that I made at Columbia. And that's one of my favorite memories, for sure.
[Nick Fabbri] (12:20 - 12:25)
It's beautiful. Yeah. It's always amazing to me, because I'm a bit older than you.
I'm probably like, oh, I'm 31.
[Grace Fox] (12:25 - 12:26)
Oh, just a little bit.
[Nick Fabbri] (12:26 - 13:07)
But like, I'm always, when I meet, I don't know, you call them probably like pandemic undergrads or something. It's not an official term for them, but people who didn't really get to experience, at least for the full four years of their undergrad, all the joys of university life. And I think Jo Wolfe, who's a professor of political philosophy here at the Blavatnik School of Government wrote an article about this in the Guardian about how much life and, I don't know, affirmative experiences people missed out on, like going down to see live music, going out with your mates at the pub, going to the sport, just like hanging out around the university.
And yeah, there was, I do have a number of other friends as well that I know who, and a couple of people at our MPP cohort too, who just simply didn't get that. But yeah, it's quite extraordinary.
[Grace Fox] (13:07 - 13:24)
It just, it did not exist. And so, you know, I think we became more resilient because of it, but there are just so many moments, right, where I entered my junior year feeling like a lost freshman sometimes, you know, I was like, what am I doing here? I don't know, because I never had to learn that way.
[Nick Fabbri] (13:24 - 13:27)
And you're making up for lost time now by getting the most out of Oxford, which is good.
[Grace Fox] (13:27 - 13:34)
Oh, of course. I never got to study abroad, but this is the, I would say this is way better, getting to live here for real and do a program that I love.
[Nick Fabbri] (13:34 - 14:06)
I was hoping you could talk to us a little bit about the history of the Seminole Nation and your people situated alongside the broad history of the Americas since European colonization after 1492, which is quite a schismatic or, you know, fundamental year, I suppose, in the history of the 60 million American or Native Americans that were living across the Americas in North and South continent. That time with Columbus actually discovering as they termed it from a European perspective, the new world.
[Grace Fox] (14:07 - 16:19)
Right. Well, I feel like a lot of my life, I mean, has been contextualized through this lens of colonialism and being indigenous and really seeing this, you know, life that I live in from many different perspectives, right? I am privileged to have grown up in a family that has always loved me and always cared for me and always made me feel like I belong and make me proud of my culture and my heritage.
But that is not a lot of what I experienced outside my family. I, you know, growing up in Oklahoma, like I said, which is predominantly red state, despite it being home to some of the most dense Native American populations after forced relocation, there is still a very stereotyped and oftentimes incorrect narrative that surrounds indigenous peoples and our life ways and our culture and our history. And that was something that I had experienced, you know, as early on as, you know, as you were saying, with Columbus Day and Christopher Columbus discovering the quote unquote new world in 1492 was in my elementary school.
And one of the most distinct things I remembered now looking back upon, I'm horrified that, you know, me and my brother and other indigenous kids experienced this was the celebration of Columbus Day. And they had us spend an entire week working on glorifying these conquistadors and building little boats made out of, you know, juice boxes and paper and cardboard and plastic. And on Columbus Day, which is supposed to be this, you know, glorifying day of celebrating what a lot of people still believe to be a hero.
You know, we'd race our little boats in a kiddie pool outside and celebrate being pilgrims. And I remember feeling so icky about that as a child. And I could never really put on my finger why that was so icky, because at this time, I hadn't delved into, you know, the history, which I'll touch briefly on, but of settler colonialism, of genocide, of continual racism, of erasure, of misrepresentation, of stigmatization.
[Nick Fabbri] (16:20 - 16:30)
But even as a child, you had a workable understanding of you being Native American and of the Seminole Nation such that you felt that celebrating 1492 and Columbus Day didn't feel right.
[Grace Fox] (16:30 - 17:14)
It always felt odd and it always felt harmful and hurtful. But I couldn't express that to my peers. They wouldn't understand.
I'm pretty sure I was the only native kid in my class. And, you know, the cohort throughout my younger years, and always feeling icky, not knowing why, and being told a history that was not real, knowing now, older and wiser, that what they were telling us was false. They so generously glided over the genocide of my people, of all indigenous people, of, you know, settler colonialism, not only in the United States, but in South America, in Australia, in, you know, even in the UK, if we're looking at Ireland, Wales, and Scotland, looking at this history.
[Nick Fabbri] (17:15 - 17:17)
It was particularly profound. Sorry to jump in.
[Grace Fox] (17:17 - 17:17)
Yeah, no, of course.
[Nick Fabbri] (17:18 - 17:44)
I mean, I've done another interview with an historian friend who talked about there being 60 million, I think, through some archaeological and research in the 70s and 80s, which dramatically revised upwards our understanding of how many Native Americans there were across both continents. They say 60 million in 1492. And they say up to about 90% of those were died out.
I mean, I suppose in the decades after.
[Grace Fox] (17:44 - 19:40)
Right. And I think a lot of that narrative still continues of, you know, you said wiped out, right? And a giant movement within indigenous peoples and natives is that we're still here.
Like, you know, maybe 90% of us were wiped out. And by disease, by genocide, by violence, by, you know, rape and pillage. And it's horrible to think of that history, right?
And I mean, even this false narrative of, you know, being wiped out and being not here anymore, and being a figment of the past, which is what I have been told a lot of the time I've heard so many times in my life, you're native, I didn't know, Native Americans still existed, I thought you were all extinct, or being told, Oh, no, like, Nick, well, oftentimes, you know, it'll be more derogatory. And they'll say, like, no, all the Indians died out, or no, Indians don't exist anymore, or the whole, you know, distancing yourself from a problematic history by saying things like, Oh, well, I'm a great, great, great, great granddaughter of a Cherokee princess, which doesn't exist, princesses don't exist in indigenous royal, like indigenous culture. But all the way, you know, back in third grade, man, third grade was a traumatic year for me thinking about it.
Because after Columbus Day, we also celebrated the land run, which, if you don't know, was a time, you know, in the 1800s. And like 1900s, when Oklahoma was being founded, it was originally Indian Territory, right. And that was when Andrew Jackson coming into the history of the Seminole Nation and the other tribes that were forcefully forcefully relocated.
My people are originally from, you know, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, the Southeast United States, right. But with westward or with expansion along the East Coast, you know, a lot of politicians with the rise of the United States, the new founded country, white people wanted to move there. And Indians or, you know, I call them Indians, because I can because I'm native.
But it was, quote, the native problem, right.
[Nick Fabbri] (19:41 - 19:50)
And because they were living and residing in areas where people wanted Americans wanted to live in, and it's elected, was it called the Trail of Tears, the Trail of Tears.
[Grace Fox] (19:50 - 20:22)
And that is actually how my my family went from Southeast, you know, United States, Florida, which is where, you know, historically, we had always been to Oklahoma. And I cannot like I cannot emphasize the devastation of the Trail of Tears and genocide enough. So many lives were lost.
And so much culture, and morale, and life was just devastated by colonialism by settler colonialism. And that's, you know, it's a horrible history.
[Nick Fabbri] (20:22 - 20:39)
And that wasn't that long ago, the United States is 200 years old, the pain of those ripples from that in the early 1800s still is felt today, the trauma, basically, the loss of connection to country, dislocation, the sense of all of it displaced in your own country, your own land, your own country, to the point where it doesn't feel like it's your own country anymore.
[Grace Fox] (20:39 - 22:05)
And this is where the land back movement comes comes in a little bit later. But this this process along the Trail of Tears, right, and then consequently, the land run where westward, you know, like westward pioneers would go in they wanted Indian territory, they wanted what was, you know, after all of these natives were moved and stripped away from their homelands put in Oklahoma, quote, the five civilized tribes, the Seminole Nation is one of them. And then ultimately being told no, now that we know there's oil and rich farmland for grazing for cattle, we want that back.
And so the one little piece of land that was given by the United States was once again, ripped away through this process called the land run, which we so duly reenacted in the third grade where you dress up as you know, pioneers, you wear like the little house on the prairie skirts, you wear cowboy hats, and you build covered wagons, fill it with your stuff. And what the process of the land run was, was there's flags in, you know, in acres of land on Indian territory that they forcefully once again, removed indigenous peoples from. And then at the you know, sound of a pistol, all of these prospectors with their wagons and their horses and their families raced forward to pull out a white flag and put in their own flag, representing that that was their state, like rightful land, their rightful territory, take it, and then be able to settle there and develop a family and a community.
And we reenacted this in the third grade.
[Nick Fabbri] (22:05 - 22:09)
And it was, I remember being in the late 2000s.
[Grace Fox] (22:09 - 22:12)
Yeah, this was this was probably like late 2000s, right?
[Nick Fabbri] (22:12 - 22:14)
And it still continues.
[Grace Fox] (22:14 - 22:53)
Oh, it still continues. It's 2024. And I'm, I'm pretty sure the land run, you know, reenactment still continue, you know, across Oklahoma, and it's a source of pride, which is also something that I've, I've had to reckon with, as I grow older with this, this dissonance between a false history and a true narrative is separating what is real and what is not and growing up and seeing, you know, I remember being so excited because it was a day off school, right? You got to dress up, my mom put so much effort, and I know it must have made her so uncomfortable to make me a pioneer outfit.
Like she she put me in pretty, like little prairie skirt and a little bonnet, and she's hand sewed this. And I cannot imagine the horror she must have felt sewing that for me.
[Nick Fabbri] (22:53 - 22:53)
Yeah.
[Grace Fox] (22:55 - 23:18)
Full well being older and more knowledgeable about the history of the United States. And so reenacting that as a child, you know, just contributes to this false history. And I'm honored to use my voice and my platform and my experience in education to do things like this where, you know, the land run was, you know, not, you can sort of correct the record and sort of speak truth to power and actually say how things were.
[Nick Fabbri] (23:18 - 23:44)
I mean, I do want to come to what it looks like to kind of, you know, to be a part of the Seminole Nation in the 21st century. But before we get there, just to sort of close off the history part, what, what, before the arrival of the European colonizers, what was the Seminole Nation and what were the cultural practices like? I mean, what, what is that sort of almost utopian image before, you know, white settlements and I guess the displacement and trauma?
What did that look like?
[Grace Fox] (23:45 - 25:41)
Of course. So like I, like I had already said, the Seminole Nation is originally, you know, from Florida and Alabama, Georgia, modern day, right? But during the time there were no states.
And our community was very much a proud community. It was, you know, lived in houses, little like little rat like houses floating on stilts called chickies, which were really cute. And we spoke the language Muskogee, which now a lot of people call Muskogee.
That's also a name for another tribe. Similarly, you know, conflated with Creek, which I'm also a descendant of. But the Seminole Nation, the Creek Nation, the Muskogee Nation all share like a similar area of origination.
And, you know, just the similar language, the similar culture, we, you know, were hunters and gatherers and farmers and had complex life ways and where the music and culture music and culture. And, you know, after there's these beautiful skirts made out of patchwork, which is something still so significant and iconic to the Seminole Nation. And, you know, my great grandmother wore them, my mom wore them, the tribe wears them.
It's just like this beautiful artistic clothing that is unique to only the Seminole Nation. And, you know, pre colonization, there was very much one Seminole Nation. But post being, you know, forcefully removed on the Trail of Tears, we split into two, the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma and the Seminole Nation of Florida.
And so now we are two separate tribes, both federally recognized. But at the same time, the Seminole Tribe of Florida is one of the wealthiest native nations in the United States, whereas the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma is not. And it is crazy to see how even after, you know, seeing this, this divide, pre and post colonialism, how even today, you know, there's still rifts and that are being created, just because there's, there's not that, you know, homogeneity anymore.
We were separated.
[Nick Fabbri] (25:41 - 26:48)
But then also the consequent divergences in policies that affect Native Americans, like in Oklahoma, you might not have rights to lands and resources, but in Florida, the Seminole people probably would have. Just to jump along in the interview, the country I come from, Australia, has had similar experiences in trying to reconcile itself with colonization, after the often destructive policies towards our Indigenous brothers and sisters over hundreds of years, and trying to understand what it means to be almost like many nations within one whole modern nation state, right? So despite all the trauma, there are still enduring senses of survival of nationhood, identity and language in the 500 Aboriginal nations that existed pre-European settlement.
And so when you were talking before about, you know, we're still here, where we survived and we've thrived, that is something that in Australia, our Aboriginal Australians often talk about, you know, word for word, exactly. So I'm curious as to what it looks and feels like for you to be part of the Seminole Nation today in the 21st century as its, you know, up and coming emergent leader.
[Grace Fox] (26:49 - 28:34)
I'm not only proud to be a member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, but I'm also proud to be Indigenous. I'm proud to be Native. And that's something I've not always felt.
And I think growing up and starting to see, you know, the emergence of social media and of, you know, famous Indigenous TikTokers and YouTubers and creatives and actors has really, really helped me come into my own of being confident as someone who can change the world with their leadership. Growing up, I did not see a lot of kind and strong and fierce, you know, Native leaders or politicians or, you know, changemakers. And something I've always wanted to do is be that for people.
Visibility, right? I want to show other people that this is possible and that we are still here and we have always been. And I think being, you know, Native today is something that is much less, obviously, much less dangerous than it was for my great grandmother or my grandmother or my mom or me or my brother.
But at the same time, we still face so, so many challenges that I'm proud to devote, you know, my life and my work and my policies and my efforts to combating. I think that I've grown to be someone who's confident with myself and my identity. And identity is a big, you know, a big factor and a big issue with Indigenous people of like figuring out who am I?
What do I look like as a Native in 2024? What does that look like for the roles I hold and the jobs I take in the schools I'm in and communities I interact with? And how can I, you know, change those for the better?
[Nick Fabbri] (28:35 - 28:49)
And how do you walk between two worlds in many ways? How do you maintain cultural practices and language and interpersonal relations with your family as well, but also be part of, I guess, that sort of contemporary American homogenous nation?
[Grace Fox] (28:49 - 31:12)
Right. And it's hard. It really is because I, you know, I get to live this really cool, you know, I have such a strong tie to my, my native culture, but also, I'm also just yeehaw.
I, you know, y'all, y'all, I love Southern food, Southern hospitality. I love the community. I miss my home.
Like, I miss the sun and the rolling hills and the community and the family that I have there. But I'm, you know, also have to grapple with this dissonance between my, my indigenous identity. And I've been trying to reconnect a lot more.
And this is also a big thing that I know, in Australia, lots of Aboriginal people are doing and the same in the North American, South America is reconnection, reconnecting with your roots, reconnecting with your culture. And I've been doing language classes in my free time to learn my traditional language. So, like, Hi, how are you?
There you go. And my parents always, you know, my great grandma would tell my parents words in Seminole, and she would speak Seminole with her sister. And, you know, my dad will still name our Wi Fi password in Seminole words.
And, you know, we still say like, a la if you're doing something bad, and you're not supposed to be touching that, or, you know, my mom would be like, a la, Hachi, Watson, get out of the kitchen, because they're my dogs, and they're not supposed to be eating floor food. Or like, a ho, a yo, like just things we say, like there's a certain culture to, to indigeneity that I'm working to blend. And of course, it's a constant battle.
I'm constantly trying to learn how to blend these two worlds in this this this borderlands of my life. And I'm trying to reconnect, I'm, you know, teaching myself the language, I decided to do indigenous studies at Columbia, I continue to devote my life to indigenous law and policy, because they're things I really care about. And I learned something new every day.
And of course, we are not homogenous, my experience is so different from other native peoples, from, you know, First Nations people from Aboriginal peoples, but we all do share this, this common, this common trauma, and this common hope for the future and resilience and strength and power is because at the end of it, we are still here we are, we have survived so many attempts at erasure, yet we still come back stronger, and seeing more representation and seeing myself in places like the Blattnick School of Government at Oxford, of all places, right?
[Nick Fabbri] (31:13 - 31:16)
That spring of that colonial UK imperial, it does, it does.
[Grace Fox] (31:16 - 32:13)
But it gives me a lot of hope as well. Because this is not common. I was talking to my mom last night, and about just like imposter syndrome.
And she was like, I don't think that there are, she's like, do you know of any other indigenous or native students at Oxford? And I racked my brain for probably good 20 minutes, and I could not say yes, you should start a group, right? I was like, I want to start like a little I was very involved in Native American Council at Columbia.
And I wanted to do that here. But with who? Right.
And so I'm like, maybe I'll just expand it and teach and teach the, you know, teach others because I'll come to class, right? It's not it's not reduced to just indigenous peoples. But that solidarity exists beyond just natives.
It solidarity requires a concerted effort from everybody. And I think that's where I've learned to be so much more prouder of my identity as being reinforced by the communities that I surround myself in and truly feeling like I'm empowered to make change and be here at Oxford and be here talking to you.
[Nick Fabbri] (32:14 - 32:43)
Yeah, thanks. Wonderful reflections and talking about family and culture. Sadly, your great grandmother, the matriarch of your family and tribe passed away late last year.
And so I'm very sorry for your loss. And I know how much she meant to you through conversations that we've had and to your family as well. I was hoping if you feel happy to do so, if you'd like to tell us a little bit more about her, what kind of person she was and what she represented to you and also to the Seminole Nation.
[Grace Fox] (32:44 - 32:47)
Yeah. Man.
[Nick Fabbri] (32:48 - 32:52)
It's just gone dark in the room. Half the lights turned off.
[Grace Fox] (32:52 - 32:54)
Oh, absolutely. But it's like mood lighting, right?
[Nick Fabbri] (32:54 - 32:55)
Yeah, exactly.
[Grace Fox] (32:55 - 37:32)
It's set in the scene. But my, like you said, last semester, last term, right? My first time really internationally away from home, my great grandmother, Elizabeth, or as we call her, Bessie Spencer, passed away.
And she was 92 years old and lived a really, really long, awesome life. Like, man, she was so cool. But I was away and I got to say goodbye over FaceTime, which was really hard.
Because my family has always been quite, quite small. I didn't just because of family things and moving around a lot as a kid. I never really had that giant extended family that everybody talks about.
Like, you don't go hang out with the cousins. You don't, you know, it was me, my mom, dad, brother and dogs. But there was also grandma.
And she loved us so much and would always make such an effort to be around and show up and be present. When I was like a kid and continuing as I grew older, I always kept thinking, like, I have such good memories with grandma and my brother does too. And my whole family does.
And my mom was partially raised by her. And, you know, her husband at the time who passed when my mom was young. But man, it's hard to think about because she meant so much to me and my family and my community.
And we haven't really had time to mourn just because life goes so fast. But she lived life so good. And, you know, she was 92 years old.
So she was born in the 30s. Right. And going when we were planning for her funeral, we looked at all of her pictures, and she's lived 1000 lives.
You know, there's the 1950s with the pedal pushers on a bike, there's her with like chains and a big old fluffy hair. And she was a woman of devotion and of love, and of humor, but silently because she could never she always had to be bad cop, compared to my great grandpa who I never got to meet. But she was so cool and sharp and smart.
And I, that's where my middle name comes from is from her, Grace Elizabeth Fox. And I carry that with me every day. And she even though I didn't get to see her a lot later on, towards her death, because I was at Columbia, or I was, you know, in DC, or I was here at Oxford, I never did not believe that she loved me and thought of me every day.
I always got birthday cards. And one of the things I carry with me now is a coat of hers. And even before she passed, she had preemptively made Christmas presents for me and my brother.
And we got them about a month after her passing on Christmas. She was truly a woman of power and of love. And I miss her.
And my whole family misses her. But I try to live by her spirit, knowing that she had such a fulfilling life. And I can't wait to live a life like hers.
So I can tell, you know, my, my, as I say, future ancestors, about the stories that I've had and show them a life where when I was a kid, I didn't have the same opportunities that they will have. And I think that's empowering and enlightening to think, what will life be like for for them? Just as I'm sure, you know, Grandma Bessie wondered, what is life going to be for my great, great grandkid.
And that's crazy. You know, she all she wanted to do was, my mom told me this, all she wanted to do, she always would joke being like, I'm going to die soon. Like, I'm going to die soon.
And my mom's like, don't say that. Right. And she's like, I just want to live to see you know, my granddaughter get married, which is my mom, and then my mom got married.
Or she's like, Oh, I want to live till I see my first great grandbaby be born. And I was born and I got to live a whole 21 years before she passed. And, you know, she saw me graduate elementary, middle, high and college.
And I think that's such a lovely thing is to continue her spirit through my work to always hold, always hold her love and always hold her grit, and her humor and her unwavering sense of pride in me with everything that I do.
[Nick Fabbri] (37:32 - 37:36)
Bessie, her legacy will continue to live on through you and future generations after you.
[Grace Fox] (37:36 - 37:41)
Always, always. And that's something that I'm proud of. And something that continues to motivate me with everything I do.
[Nick Fabbri] (37:42 - 38:01)
It is humbling, though, to think about just how much change she would have seen from the 1930s to, you know, to the current day, but also then to cast your mind forward to thinking about like, you know, future generations that come after you and how many changes and maybe in, I don't know, 70, 80 years time, someone will be speaking at the Blavatnik School of Government again and doing a podcast about their great grandmother.
[Grace Fox] (38:01 - 38:09)
And who knows, maybe they'll maybe they'll take out, you know, my brain and put it into AI, like a black mirror or something crazy, but...
[Nick Fabbri] (38:09 - 38:10)
Hopefully they've worked out the air conditioning in this room.
[Grace Fox] (38:11 - 38:13)
Oh, absolutely. No white noise for them.
[Nick Fabbri] (38:14 - 38:50)
So is there a part of your home country in terms of nature and landscape that you feel happiest when thinking about when you think of home and obviously home, you've talked a lot about being around other people, too, but just trying to understand that sense of like, like rootedness in Oklahoma and being with your family, too, like and paint a portrait for the listeners about where you come from and what that world is like, because I often think, you know, we turn up at this school, the Master of Public Policy in like, what, late September last year, everyone meets each other where we're at, which is wonderful. But we have this like, it's like the tip of the iceberg, you know, when you have this like deep hinterland. And yeah, I'm just trying to like, where are you?
[Grace Fox] (38:52 - 41:51)
Right. And it's funny, actually, growing up, I always, growing up, I couldn't wait to get out. I couldn't wait to leave Oklahoma.
And maybe some of that came from a similar feeling of what when Andrew Jackson, you know, was deciding where am I going to move all of these natives who I don't want in my country? And he said, put them in Oklahoma. There's no person like on in this on this planet who would willingly want to live there because of its, you know, it's rough terrain.
It's all plains. We don't have a lot of trees unless they're oak trees. And we have, you know, just so much grass and, you know, wildlife and, you know, plains land.
Right. And then they found oil and they were like, oh, wait, we want this back. But I, you know, coming back to what I what I was growing up, I always just, you know, was like, I can't wait to get out.
I'm so bored. But then the more and more I lived away, the more and more I miss it. And I never thought I would say that.
But the grass is so pretty. It's like a it changes colors throughout the year. Right.
But the wild grass is so tall. And, you know, when I'm driving and I do miss driving, but when I'm driving right past all these wheat fields and these cornfields and it's just blowing in the wind, which is an iconic, you know, Oklahoma, you know, thing from the musical Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plains. Right.
And it's truly that the wind will blow the wheat and the grass. And we get such pretty wild flowers in the spring and in the fall. And a lot of them have deep rooted stories within like native culture of just seeing things bloom and singing life come come back after the seasons and being attached with the seasons and being attached with the land.
You know, even when it wasn't the land that was like our original homeland, it's still the land. It's my homeland now. And I will say that there is no place on on this earth that I have seen prettier sunsets.
We have skies that get painted with with cotton candy colors, light blues and pinks and purples and oranges that you've you will never see unless you are there. And I've seen some pretty sunsets in my life. But every time I go home and I see the sky light up with different colors and I see the sun filter through the grass and I see, you know, it's so flat.
You can see as far as the horizon will let you see. It's truly gorgeous. And I, you know, being able to live in Colorado or New York or here at Oxford, I, you know, you think I would shift my perception on beauty, but there's something so lovely and something so comforting about being home and seeing those sunsets and seeing the warm, warm sun.
Gosh, you don't have that here, huh?
[Nick Fabbri] (41:51 - 41:53)
No, no sun at all.
[Grace Fox] (41:53 - 41:59)
But the sun is so warm and good. You can feel it in your skin and you feel healthy and you feel energized.
[Nick Fabbri] (42:00 - 42:08)
And it's like kissing the back of your neck, you know, the neck of your neck when you feel that beaming down on you and you feel energized and you feel your face warm up and it feels like a hug from nature.
[Grace Fox] (42:09 - 42:20)
Right. And, you know, I miss that. And that's something that I don't think a lot of people think about when they think of Oklahoma, if they think of anything at all.
I hope they do.
[Nick Fabbri] (42:20 - 42:26)
I hope they do. Masters of poetry or creative writing. Who knows?
Right.
[Grace Fox] (42:27 - 42:32)
Absolutely. Come visit. You are more than welcome.
I will host you and feed you the best food you've ever had in your life.
[Nick Fabbri] (42:33 - 43:20)
So we've spoken about Gloria Anzaldúa before, an American scholar who wrote a semi autobiographical work called Borderlands, La Frontera, which is something you mentioned before, actually, in one of your answers about the experience of living in the borderlands between the U.S. and Mexico, exploring the liminality of that region through a mix of Spanish and English poetry, and also the idea of cultural layerings on top of the original inhabitants of the southwestern lands of the U.S., the Aztecas del Norte or the Chicano peoples of Aztlan. I think I've not pronounced that correctly. Yeah.
So, I mean, given you know about Anzaldúa, could you talk a bit about what you enjoy about her work and whether this sense of borderlands and living between many layers of identity and belonging resonates with you?
[Grace Fox] (43:20 - 46:48)
Right. I first came across Gloria Anzaldúa in my Contemporary Civilization course, I believe it was, or my Literature Humanity course at Columbia. And I was privileged enough to be put with two professors who greatly, greatly divested away from this core of Western thinking and wanted to introduce, you know, decolonial and post-colonial scholars into our works and into our framework instead of just, you know, Hobbes, Locke, and a whole bunch of people after.
And I remember first reading Anzaldúa, you know, early on in my academic career and feeling like I was seen. You know, I'm not Latino. I'm, you know, but Latinos are indigenous, right?
And I live in Oklahoma, which borders Texas, and I grew up surrounded by a large Latino community and also just by, you know, a large Native community feeling like you're never quite living in one world. You've got a foot in both and you try not to give any of them up. You try to live a life that's whole.
And reading her, you know, her poetry and her writings in English and Spanish and her fighting translations, but also like kind of like buying into them and creating her own like Chicano writing style is iconic and truly seeing her grab hold of her identity and say, no, you don't get to put me into a box. I'm going to be what I want to be and what I know I can be, and I'm not going to let academia, I'm not going to let society tell me what I need to be to be a scholar. And I think I take a lot of pride and inspiration from her work, just because not only is her work beautiful and the prose is fantastic, but she talks about, you know, a whole bunch of identities and a whole bunch of topics that relate so much to the indigenous experience.
And there's one and it's, you know, about language, the mother tongue, right? And it talks about her trying to figure out her blend between her languages. And like I said, I'm teaching myself Muskogee and I'm trying to learn for myself.
And I grew up hearing it and I grew up surrounded by other things. But teaching myself as an older person is difficult, but I take inspiration from her writing in her own way to be so, so fantastic. And she's prolific and a scholar that I have always looked up to and will continue to look up to and I need to read more of her works when I get free time and I'm not doing these evidence or politics readings.
But she is truly someone who first shaped my framework of what it means to be a scholar and what it means to be an academic. And she introduced me, you know, she was my gateway to Audre Lorde and Edward Said and, you know, bell hooks. She set me on that path of saying, this is what I like to read.
This is what I want to do. And ultimately it was probably Ansel Dua and reading that and having being taught by two professors, Manan Ahmed and Amudena Marin Cobos, who really just like set me on that path of saying, I don't have to look at academia in the way that institutions make me want to look at academia. I can look at it how I want to and really fall into fall into love with ethnic studies and indigenous studies, just because I knew I had people backing me and I knew people had done this before me and that I could do it after them.
[Nick Fabbri] (46:48 - 47:22)
And there's also a sense in which you are free to create, you know, a path going forward. You don't have to sort of simply accept the way things were before in academia, in your professional life too. And to that point, you've recently worked for the U.S. Department of the Interior in the Bureau of Indian Education, where I guess you're working between those two worlds again, and sort of, again, freely creating a different policy future for your people and for the American people as well, more collectively. But can you talk a bit about what that experience was like working in the department and what are some of the main indigenous policy issues in America today?
[Grace Fox] (47:22 - 50:44)
Right. I am so fortunate to be a recipient, a 2023 recipient of the Udall Native American Congressional Internship. And I've had a lovely relationship with the Udall Foundation.
I'm also a Udall undergraduate scholar. And that is essentially a foundation that really devotes its funds and its work to uplifting Native American and indigenous students across the United States to, you know, achieve their greatest potential, whether that be an environment and policy and government and health. And I, you know, as a recipient of that fellowship, I was partnered with the United States Department of the Interior.
And I worked at the Bureau of Indian Education, which has always been a dream of mine. I am a huge advocate for public education and for education that is culturally relevant, holistic, well-funded and, you know, a part of a student's life that will contribute to their future in the long run, not just K through 12. And something that I was really passionate about was creating this education system that was culturally relevant.
Most of all, you know, at Columbia, I had devoted my time to ethnic studies, not in the way of just being a student, but of also being an activist. I found, you know, I helped found the Columbia CESAR Student Advisory Board. CSER stands for the Center for the Study of Ethnicity and Race.
And we were fighting for departmentalization because even at an institution like Columbia, they do not prioritize ethnic studies. They do not prioritize Latino, Asian, Native American, Black studies. And it's shocking to see the only reason that center was funded or that center was created was because of, you know, a hunger strike in the 90s by students.
And to see that progress is always created by students and always created by activists. And you can't just expect institutions pushing at the gates, right? You can't expect institutions to do things without forcing them to.
And so that's something that really shifted my framework was creating education that teaches critical race theory, education that teaches indigenous history, you know, education that teaches students from a young age how to think critically about the world they live in, about the societies they experience, and how to navigate those as either, you know, just, you know, privileged kids or either as the least privileged kids. And being able to work that and experience the systems and know that the systems exist, acknowledge and fight them.
That has always been my goal. And I wanted to work with the Bureau of Indian Education, because I know that they really work hard to create culturally relevant education systems, media, they work hard to create funding and scholarships and help indigenous students achieve their highest potential, especially within, you know, schools across the United States. And that was something that I was really wanting to getting into was, you know, working in a public service role, working in a federal department, and getting to do that this this past summer was incredibly enlightening, getting to, you know, really wedge myself into that, that position as kind of like a negotiator, almost like a diplomat of some sorts, blending when it comes back to identity, my indigenous beliefs and my radical ways of wanting to change this world, but also, you know, fitting into a bureaucratic system that has historically been very detrimental to native kids.
[Nick Fabbri] (50:44 - 50:59)
And oppressive. Yeah. And do you see yourself maybe in the future, continuing to work within government?
Or is it or maybe in the law or maybe elected office? Like what what's the kind of like the ideal vision look like for you? I mean, again, great question, right?
[Grace Fox] (50:59 - 51:03)
Right. 20, 21 years old, and I'm expected to have my life together. Right.
[Nick Fabbri] (51:03 - 51:06)
But I'm 31. And I don't so honestly, I don't know what I'm doing in six months time.
[Grace Fox] (51:06 - 51:08)
But yeah, who knows a summer project, hopefully.
[Nick Fabbri] (51:08 - 51:09)
Yes.
[Grace Fox] (51:09 - 52:36)
Well, to be honest, I could see myself in anything. I think I've always committed myself and devoted myself to a passion as opposed to an expectation. Right.
As long as I know I'm helping native communities, I am making the world a better place. I've, you know, in my Gates essay, when I was in high school, they asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I said, happy.
And I wrote a whole essay about just wanting to be happy and proud of the work that I did. And knowing that when I leave this world, I will have left it better than when I came into it. That is such a passion of mine.
And I've truly believed that, especially with this policy background, that there will be many opportunities that I can wedge myself into that sustains that goal of mine. I initially wanted to do law, and maybe I still want to do law. I love policy.
I've done so much nonprofit work, and I truly enjoy that. And I would love to continue my work with nonprofits, regardless if that's my main career or not. But being here at Blavatnik has made me feel like maybe I could do public office.
Maybe I could hold some kind of significant power. And if I did, how do I be a good leader? And how do I continue being a good leader and building upon what I've spent my whole life training to do?
And so who knows what's next, but I'm excited for it regardless. And, you know, maybe I'll figure it out by the summer. Maybe I'll figure it out by next year.
Either way, I've loved everything I've done. I've been so privileged by the communities and the positions that I've been offered, and I can't wait to pay it forward and pay it back.
[Nick Fabbri] (52:36 - 52:56)
And so coming towards the end of the interview, I've heard you use the phrase future ancestors to refer to the generations to come and also that connection with ancestors who have gone before you. But what does this mean? And would it be right to say that you've got a strong sense of being a link or connected with your family and ancestors in the past and also those to come in future years?
[Grace Fox] (52:56 - 54:19)
I think so. Yeah, absolutely. One of a big cultural thing I think that I believe in is this connection with the past and the future and this idea that, you know, we have a lineage and it's impactful to create a life that you are proud of and a life that those who came before you and those who will come after you are also proud of.
There's this concept in some native tribes, it's called the seven generations. And the concept is that the decisions and the actions you take today will affect your ancestral line for seven generations to come. And you should always keep seven generations in your mind when you're making decisions and when you're acting and when you speak to people and when you live your life, because it doesn't just affect you.
And I think that's something that is hard for a lot of people to grasp is your life is not just your life. It is the life of everybody who has put love in life into you. And when I say future ancestors, I kind of love that term, actually.
I think it describes so well the, you know, the significance and the cultural impact of those who came before you, but knowing that people will come after you and it's your job to protect and create a better world for them. A better world, better led, better served, better governed, you know, the whole thing like that. I didn't say that here.
[Nick Fabbri] (54:20 - 54:21)
Oh, absolutely.
[Grace Fox] (54:21 - 54:44)
They love that slogan. But to create a world that is good for everyone, not just you. And seeing yourself as not an individual, but as a part of a community is something that I carry with myself deeply and something that I hope to pass on, whether or not I directly continue my lineage or I mentor or I teach or I love or I create friendships.
[Nick Fabbri] (54:44 - 54:46)
Or write books that people read, you know.
[Grace Fox] (54:46 - 54:50)
Exactly. Everything, everything can be a connection to what you've done in this life.
[Nick Fabbri] (54:50 - 55:09)
And I hope to So what fills you with hope about how young people are working for the Seminole Nation and Native Americans as well for the continuation of your shared history, both as an individual nation, but also more collectively like a pan sort of Native American future?
[Grace Fox] (55:09 - 56:34)
Right. I mean, I think it could be so cool. I think it already is so cool.
You know, youth today are putting in so much effort to create solidarity. And I think solidarity, as we've seen with recent social movements like Black Lives Matter or Against Asian Hate or, you know, as one of our lovely cohort members March for Lives has created is the sense of solidarity and the sense of, you know, binding together to fight an oppressive system. And that's always kind of how it has to be in order to make significant and long lasting sustainable change.
And what I see today is a lot of people being proud, not only being proud to be Native, being proud to be Indian, but being proud to work together between tribes, between cultures, not just within natives, but within external communities who have probably faced similar forms of oppression or colonialism and saying, we have a goal. Let's work together. Let's get it done.
I think there's a kind of grit and passion and like fire that I see in a lot of, you know, Native youth today that I didn't see a lot growing up. And I'm honored to be hopefully a part of it. And so excited to see it continue and blossom through movements like Land Back or, you know, MMIW, MMIP and, you know, other movements that are going to change what it means to be a Native person in the United States over the next couple generations.
[Nick Fabbri] (56:35 - 56:39)
Stunning. And so coming again to the last or the second last question.
[Grace Fox] (56:40 - 56:40)
Right.
[Nick Fabbri] (56:40 - 56:41)
Do you have any words?
[Grace Fox] (56:41 - 56:42)
Oh, I talk a lot. I apologize.
[Nick Fabbri] (56:42 - 56:49)
This has been an extravaganza. I think we're nearly at an hour, which is good. Oh, my God, we'll be kicked out shortly.
This is why I'm sort of.
[Grace Fox] (56:49 - 56:50)
OK, we'll speed run, speed run.
[Nick Fabbri] (56:50 - 57:11)
It's been really wonderful to talk, but I was so obviously coming towards the end. I'm wondering if you had any words of advice for those thinking of applying to the Blavatnik School of Government and the University of Oxford, particularly for those with Indigenous heritage, wherever they may be from around the world and who have overcome significant barriers to get here, I guess, like yourself.
[Grace Fox] (57:11 - 58:23)
Right. Do it. Just just put your mind to it and know that you can do it is what I would tell anybody thinking that they can't.
I you know, a year ago when we were applying, I thought, man, I'm just doing this. I'm not going to get it. I'm spending my winter break applying for a you know, a master's degree that I know I'm not going to get.
And I I was lucky enough and privileged enough and I worked hard enough to get it. And I didn't think it could happen. And I thought that a lot about, you know, many moments in my life.
I didn't think I could get Udall. I didn't think I could get Gates. I didn't think I could get Columbia.
Those were my wildest dreams. And if you put limits on what you think you can do, those limits will stop you from doing what you could ultimately do. And so I think I would just say, do it.
You never know what someone's going to say. Like you just have to do it. You send in the application because you don't know what they're going to say.
You may think that you're not good enough, but who knows what they think. We are our own worst critics. And especially if you come from a background that is disenfranchised or historically marginalized, you are especially needed at places like Oxford.
That is how things change. That is how things get better. And that's how that's how that's how we improve.
[Nick Fabbri] (58:24 - 58:42)
I love that quote, shoot for the moon. And even if you miss, you'll land among the stars. Yeah, exactly.
Final short answer questions. Like maybe a word or a couple of words. We'll see because we are going to be thrown out of here in a second.
Favorite restaurant or bar in Oxford?
[Grace Fox] (58:42 - 58:50)
Oh, I love Lamb and Flag. That is my favorite pub. And I don't know restaurant actually.
I love I love all food.
[Nick Fabbri] (58:52 - 58:54)
Best memory of the MPP so far?
[Grace Fox] (58:54 - 59:04)
Oh man, military boot camp at the beginning of the term has got to be up there. I mean, raising a flag without touching it is kind of a crazy task to do, especially when you're just meeting people.
[Nick Fabbri] (59:04 - 59:07)
Wonderful icebreaker and bonding exercise as well.
[Grace Fox] (59:07 - 59:07)
All in one.
[Nick Fabbri] (59:08 - 59:10)
So who was the first person you met on the course?
[Grace Fox] (59:11 - 59:26)
Oh, the first person I think I met was Shuaib. We went to Chinese food at Grand Sichuan and to do the obscure after. I think it was him that I first met because he had set up that event.
And I was so grateful that someone did it.
[Nick Fabbri] (59:26 - 59:27)
Yeah, cool. I didn't go terribly.
[Grace Fox] (59:28 - 59:33)
No, we could have been the first ones. I should have just lied and said it was you.
[Nick Fabbri] (59:34 - 59:38)
So the last one, somewhere you're looking forward to traveling this year.
[Grace Fox] (59:38 - 1:00:00)
Oh, I want to travel the world. I never got to travel growing up outside of the country, you know, so I am so, so excited about doing that. Like I said, I've been to Scotland, but I'm thinking about going on the Iceland trip in a few weeks or for March spring break.
Right. I've never seen the Northern Lights, but it's always been my bucket list. So maybe I'll get to go see them, you know, see some, I don't know, are there reindeer there?
[Nick Fabbri] (1:00:00 - 1:00:01)
Huskies maybe?
[Grace Fox] (1:00:01 - 1:00:07)
Stop. I love dogs. But yeah, definitely the Northern Lights is a dream of mine.
So maybe Iceland next.
[Nick Fabbri] (1:00:07 - 1:00:34)
Oh, cool. Wonderful. And so that's the end of the interview.
Thank you so much for your time today, Grace. It's been a real privilege to speak with you and learn from you. Thank you to all the listeners of the Oxford Policy Podcast.
Please like and subscribe and share our podcast. You can follow us on Instagram at Oxford Policy Pod underscore. We're available on Spotify, iTunes and everywhere else you get your podcasts.
But yeah, thank you once again, Grace. It's been awesome.
[Grace Fox] (1:00:34 - 1:00:36)
Yeah, thank you so much. I'm so appreciative of this.